Hans Hahn

[Chris Goss]

I would urge caution just using Fighter Command Losses for times-best bet would be to use the F540s of the Sqns involved. Trouble is 31 Aug-end of Sept 40 is a busy time and some units records were understandably inaccurate

[Nokose]

Thanks Chris for the information but limited resources prevents me from going much further. I'm trying to get a better "picture" of his actual score before going to Russia in the west. I looked at Tony's list and actually found a possible for Erich Rudorffer on the 31 Aug 1940 (which I wasn't looking for at this stage). It appears from all the German pilots claims there were more then a few "extra" claims made during the day on the 31 Aug 1940. So it looks like Hahn's claims might not have been shot down for that day. Hahn was a fighter who jumped into odds that some people would have second thoughts about but his claims at least so far in Russia have not been that reliable in the real world. So I would like to get a feel of how he was before going there.

[Johannes]

Hi

In my opinion claiming was more honest in the West, this is due to the Luftwaffe having more scope to examine crash-sites, and generally larger Luftwaffe formations. I guess the units C.O makes a difference also......Adolf Galland a very honest claimer seemed to have kept a tight reign on his pilots, he was followed by Priller another very honest pilot as leader of JG 26. In my opinion all the units in the med(except JG 2 during it's brief stay in Africa) were an honest bunch i.e JG 27, JG 53.
In Russia the pilots of JG 5 seemed to believe they were abandoned with inferior aircraft, and their air-battles were usually over the sea(as per JG 2 in the West). Usually in the East combat was behind enemy lines, so less scope for investigation, and it seems there were always dishonest and honest claimers within units.....over-claimers sometimes is too light a word for it. We all know of the four JG 27 pilots caught firing-off their ammunition over the African desert, and claiming large numbers of "kills", but reported doing so by a lost comrade who happened upon them.
The Luftwaffe method of reporting claims was very rigorous, you couldn't "over-claim" without help......being an officer helped, classic i'll scratch your back, you scratch mine would be Rudorffer/Tangermann.
Generally JG 51 and JG 77 in my opinion were the most accurate claimers(again perhaps leaders helped i.e Vatti Molders).
Sometimes authors print(which is cast in stone) doesn't help. Walter-Franz Woidich springs to mind, we were always told 110 confirmed claims, and we had the dates, but Woidich himself has the last twenty-eight of these over Russian missing from his abschüße list i.e somebody made it up, and it stuck!, and this guy was a honest claimer, it's difficult now to convince enthusiasts now that his total is 82 not 110 ! same with Walter Schuck his total of 206 is based only on the pilots statement that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims had(by some miracle it would seem) all been confirmed, therefore his total is 181.

Often a pilot transferred West with a large number of claims, doesn't make any in the West, for it was more difficult do actually do, and the scope for "over-claiming" is less.

So it was easier in the East.......if, and a big if you wanted to do it.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Beale]

In my opinion all the units in the med(except JG 2 during it's brief stay in Africa) were an honest bunch

In Italy (February–April 1944) I./JG 2 made 52 claims. In those actions the Allies lost 20–25 aircraft, so they may have been honest (if you accept that 2:1 overclaiming was about normal for fighter pilots) but even so they weren't very accurate.

[gaupe75]

Originally Posted by Johannes

same with Walter Schuck his total of 206 is based only on the pilots statement that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims had(by some miracle it would seem) all been confirmed, therefore his total is 181.

I know for sure that at least his last two claims in Norway is not correct, but I guess he was aching for the 200 mark, but I do not think this was a deliberate lie.

[Juha]

Hello Nick Beale thanks for the interesting piece of info on I./JG 2.

On the JG 2 generally (and MTO)
IMHO Mark R. / Mark J. Reardon’s message #4 on 7th April 2011 14:32 for the actual research on the USAAF reported P-38 losses and the LW P-38 claims during the Tunisia Campaign and Rob Romero’s #25 on 20th April 2011, 20:24 for the stats calculated from it give a good indication of the variation of claim accuracy of different units.

see: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=24947

Rob’s main result were
JG 51 19/25: 76.0%
JG 27 -2/-3: 66.7%
JG 53 19/29: 65.5%
JG 77 -7/11: 63.6%
JG 2 -5/22: 22.7%

the sample of JG 27 is very small but IMHO generally LW claims were at that time and area very accurate, those of JG 51 almost exceptionally accurate but again JG 2 was an exception, overclaiming badly.

[Nokose]

Okay, I looked at the claims for the 25 Aug 1940 for the time between 18:15 - 18:50 (Berlin) and for five Hurricanes and four Spitfires there were a lot of German claims on the Portland raid.
Following are just from Tony Woods list:
5/ZG 76 claimed three all Spitfires
JG 53 claimed 13
7/JG 27 three (2 Hurricanes and a Spitfire)
JG 2 claimed nine (four Hurricanes and five Spitfires)
Most of these claims were around the time of Hahn's claim for a Spitfire. So the 25th leaves very bad odds that he shot down his claim or that some of these claims were actually shared.

[GMichalski]

hi,

to compare more of this day these are the losses and damaged
(many of Nick Hector)...

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R9819? 616 Wareing P.T.Sgt. pow,evader Calais nr. Crashed after combat over Channel, awarded DFM for escape via Sweden

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I K9931 610 Gardiner F.T.F/O. ba,wia Northbourne, Kent Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dover

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I N2646 213 Sgt E G Snowden safe Burton Bradstock, Dorset Damaged by Bf109s over Portland. Crash landed Burton Bradstock Dorset

25/08/1940 1745 Spitfire I N3226 602 Sprague M.H.Sgt. ba,safe Portland off Patrol,Baled out off Portland after combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1820 Spitfire I N3268 92 Tuck R.R.S.F/Lt. wia St Gowan's Head, Pembroke Crashed without engine after combat with Do215, wounded in a leg

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I P2755 32 Gillman Keith Reginald P/O. + Dover off Shot down

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I P2766 213 F/L J M Strickland safe Portland nr. Shot down

25/08/1940 1800 Hurricane I P3200 213 Atkinson H.D.P/O. + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland

25/08/1940 0130 Hurricane I P3758 73 Long (Leng?) M.E.Sgt. ba,safe Beverley nr. Night Patrol,Brought down by british AA fire near Beverley

25/08/1940 ¿time? Spitfire I P9381 602 Coverley W.H.F/O. ba,safe Dorchester area Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dorchester

25/08/1940 1745 Hurricane I R4199 17 Williams Cedric Watcyn S/Ldr. + Portland off Shot down in combat after head-on attack against Bf110, cut in half

25/08/1940 1730 Spitfire I R6986 609 P/ O P Ostaszewski-Ostoja wia Warmwell Crashed due battle damaged by Me109 over Swanage, wounded in arm

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6810 152 Hogg Richard Malzard P/O. + Portland off Shot down by Luftwaffe fighters

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R6966? 616 Westmoreland Thomas Emrys Sgt. + Maidstone nr. Lost in combat with Bf109 over Canterbury

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I R6969 54 Shand M.M.P/O. wia near Manston Damaged during combat with Bf109 over Dover, repaired (only 20hrs experience, asigned with Deere!)

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6994 152 Wildblood Timothy Seddon P/O. Mid + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland by Bf109

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I V6547 32 Rose J.P/O. ba,safe Channel Baled out over the Channel during combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1730 Hurricane I V7226 213 Philippart J.A.L.P/O. + drowned Portland off Shot down by Bf109 of JG53, JG3?

25/08/1940 1805 Hurricane I V7250 87 Wakeling S.R.E.Sgt. + Portland nr. Shot down by Bf109 and burst into flames and crashed near Dorchester

25/08/1940 1750 Hurricane I V7407 17 Bayne A.W.A.F/Lt. ba,safe Portland off Baled out in combat with Bf110s and Bf109s, Shot down over Bognor

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane W6668 213 Missing ?

regards

[Nokose]

Looking at the morning of the 04 Sep 1940 in the Folkestone raid time period of 10:10-1020 (09:10-09:20 British) there are only two RAF losses in the Folkestone area. 111 Sqn lost two Hurricanes at 09:15. The 66 Sqn lost two Spitfire at 09:50 and 10:00 beyond the time of Hahn's claim so they're not part of the search.
For two Hurricanes this is what Tony Woods list has:
Oblt. Otto Bertram 1./JG 2 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt. Adolf-Friedrich Götz 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Fw. Willi Reins 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Uffz. Hans Hahn 4./JG 2 Spitfire 10:15 Ashford
Oblt. Rudolf Unger 2./JG 54 Spitfire 10:20 ?
Oblt. Hans-Ekkehard Bob 9./JG 54 Hurricane Folkestone
Fw. Fritz Dettmer 9/JG 54 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt Richard Leppa 3./JG 51 Spitfire 10:30 ?

So eight claims for two fighters lost during this time period. Again very bad odds that Hahn actually got one of these and "Folkestone" seems to be blanket coverage of this area.

[Nokose]

04 Sep 1940 14:05-14:35 German (13:05-13:35 British)
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 near Stambridge by Bf 109
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 over Rochford by Bf 109
66 Sqn Spitifire 13:40 over Ashford by Bf 109
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:40 over Hartfield (Sussex) with Me-110
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 over Kent with Me-110
79 Sqn Hurricane 13:40 ? with Me-110
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 ? by British AAA
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:35 N of Maidstone unk cause
601 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 ? damaged by Me-110

Oblt. Otto Bertram 1/JG 2 Hurricane 14:05 London
Fw. Peter Fasshauer 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:15 Maidstone
Fw Rudolf Täschner 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:27 New Romney
Lt. Julius Meimberg 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:05 Ashford
Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz 5/JG 2 Spitfire 14;15 ?
Obfw Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:25 Margate
Obfw Karl Hannes 4/JG 2 Spitfire ? Ashford
These are the claims by other units during that time
I/JG 77 three Spitfires (possibly two more which didn't have times listed)
8/JG 54 one Spitfire
III/JG 51 one Spitfire and one Hurricane (Possibly two more Spitfires which didn't have times)
ZG 76 twenty Spitfires and two Hurricanes

Hans Hahn listed his Spitfire at Margate and these RAF losses were not in that area to my knowlege. So this one with all the overclaiming appears to have bad odds of post-war confirmation for Hahn.