Erich Hartmann - several questions

[krichter33]

Johannes, why do you still throw around terms like "fraudster." I don't know if Wurmheller or any of the others you mentioned actually lied, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Yes, it's obvious they overclaimed, but as I and other posters have already mentioned numerous times, unless you have actual proof they did fabricate claims then stop referring to them as fraudsters. I basically agree with Joe's post. I don't really know how many "kills" the top aces from all sides actually had. Like I said, I believe they pretty much all overclaimed, so their actual "kills" are never accurate. Some pilots overclaimed more than others, and yes, in some isolated instances, some pilots probably lied and fabricated scores. But like I said before I believe those pilots were the minority not the norm. Studying loss records is an important historical undertaking that shows which units and which pilots overclaimed. But as Joe said judging the personal integrity of any of these pilots is beyond the scope of any statistical endeavor. Like has been said, Marseille might have been an "egoist" which I really don't know, and his "shooting patterns" seemed "strange" yet his scores are considered very accurate with not as much overclaiming. This simply shows that anything that can be gathered out of such "facts" are all speculation. No one will ever now the actual scores of the top aces. It is not like readjusting U Boat aces claims, which are quite easy to do. So, myself personally, when I look at the "victory" lists of the top aces, from all nations, I accept the scores credited, with the knowledge that ALL these scores include overclaims and are simply the "victories" credited. Yet, I never challenge the personal integrity of any of these pilots, and neither do most professional aviation historians.