Austrian FIAT CR.32s

[harryfighter]

Hello Denes, hello Stig!

The Austrian Air Force bought 45 "Chirri's" in 1936 to equip the Jagdgeschwader II in Wr.Neustadt. There was no connection between the Werk-Nr. (construction number) from Fiat and the Dienstnummer in Austria. The system of Dienstnummern was the military registration system, the DNr. helps to find out what kind of aircraft is this 1.. means fighter aircraft, 2.. means recce, 3.. is a bomber and so on. Also there is no connection to a civil registration. This was not necessary anymore in 1936! For example the DNr. 165 was a fighter from the type Fiat Cr32 and had the running number 65 in this block, the construction number was 524.
In 1938 the Jagdgeschwader II with the Cr32 became the I/JG135 and the I/JG138. The commander of the I/JG138 was Hptm. Wilfried Müller-Rienzburg, the former commander of the Jagdgeschwader II. The Gruppe was based in Wien-Aspern, therfore the famous enblem "Löwe von Aspern" lion from Aspern of the Deutsche Luftwaffe. This enblem exist still today with the Austrian Air Force, many years with the Draken and now with the Eurofighter of the Überwachungsgeschwader.

There were no Chirri's directly sold from the Austrian Air Force to Hungary but likely later from the Luftwaffe. I don't believe that Hungary used the DNr. for the ex Austrian Cr 32. George Punka states in his booklet "Hungarian Air Force" the registration V.060,.. for 36 ex Austrian aircraft.

In addition the Air Force bought also three Fiat Cr 30 monoposto with the DNr. 183, 184 and 186 and three Fiat Cr 30 biposto with the DNr. 180, 181 and 182.

Best wishes from Austria,

Harald

[Dénes Bernád]

Thanks you, Harald, for the explanation.

In the meantime, I found out that additionally to the 36 CR.32s, 7 CR.20s were probably also sold to Hungary!

This was mentioned in Flieger Revue Extra Nr. 3:
FIAT CR.20bis, Nr. 113, 120, 126, 128, 130, 132 es 133: moeglicher Verkauf nach Ungarn.

Things are getting complicated and fuzzy...

Can anyone confirm these sales?

[harryfighter]

Hello Denes,

At first there is an error with the DNr. of the Fiat Cr30, the three Cr 30 monoposto are DNr. 183, 184 and 185! Sorry about this typing error!

Fiat Cr 20 - I don't believe that such aircraft were sold to Hungary!
In the thirties 36 Fiat Cr 20 (4 of them were bipostos) were bought from Italy. A part of this batch, if not all, were used aircraft. The year of construction of many of these aircraft was 1932. In 1938 33 Cr 20 existed, 22 of them were not serviceable! The Luftwaffe put seven aircraft in the strength of Ausbildungsregiment 24 in Klagenfurt, exactly the seven DNr. you mentioned. All other Cr 20 were scrapped in Erding! Some photos from Klagenfurt Cr 20 exist, even a gate guard in the book from Roba about Beuteflugzeuge.

An example of the life of an aircraft:
The first single-seater in Austria was Fiat Cr 20bis, construction nr. 423, year 1933, reg. as A-23 (a civil reg.) then A-204 (also civil reg.), with 1935 the aircraft got the DNr. 13 and the Kokarde as nationalty marking.

A second example the construction nr. 405 had a better engine, a Fiat A20AQ, got the DNr. 134, and had also MM2351.

And a double-seater, Construction nr. 1803, year 1931, MM1803, civil reg. A-203, got the DNr. 12.

Examples for reg. in Klagenfurt are WL+ICDG and RT+AU. I don't know the DNr. they had before.

These aircraft were obsolete what should Hugary do with such aircraft? Even the Chirri's were old and not very useful in modern combat, even though they scored some kills in the short war with Slovakia.

What do you think about a possible use in Hungary?

Greetings from Austria,

Harald

[Dénes Bernád]

Hello Harald (and others interested in this obscure story),

From German files on the export of captured materiel, 36 CR 32 and 4 CR 30, along with 34 FIAT A 30 engines, were sold to Hungary in 1940.
So, this clarifies the question on total numbers.

Now, it would be interesting to find out the constr- nos. of the 36+4 FIATs sold to Hungary.

I was told that Öfh Nachrichten No. 2/08 has the story of the CR.20s. Do you have access to this magazine (not only this number)? Perhaps the topic of the CR.30s and CR.32s is clarified in other issues...

[harryfighter]

Hello Denes,

I'm a founding member of the Austrian Aircraft Historians (Österreichische Flugzeug Hisotriker) and Schriftführer of this reg. association, of course I've all the magazines since 1975. Look also at our website www.oefh.at. My special interest is the aviation between the wars in Austria.

Fiat Cr 20 was an article in two numbers in 2008.

Sorry to say but it is not clear which Chirris were sold to Hungary.

Best wishes,

Harald

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo Harald/Dénes

I agree with Harald that no Austrian CR.20bis went to Hungary. The Hungarian CR.20 were bought much earlier directly from Italy.

Harald there is a slight error in your statement about DNr 12. It cannot have had c/n 1803 as well as MM 1803. The MM number sounds correct, since at that time a Fiat c/n as high as 1803 is improbable.

Since I don't have the issue 2/2008 (I was not a member until 2009 ) is it possible to list the two CR.20 singleseaters which were w/o before any DNr were received?

Cheers
Stig

[harryfighter]

Hello Stig!

You are absolutely right, I think that nr. 1803 for the Cr 20 biposto, later DNr.12, is not the real construction number but the MM. The official records from the Luftstreitkräfte in the thirties state this nr. 1803 as c/n, therefore the use of this obviously wrong number, but it is not the only misuse of MM numbers in the records.

The Cr 20 biposto DNr.11 had the c/n 143 and there is no MM known.

Here are the two Cr 20 w/o before DNr. were given:

A-63, (A-208 was intended) c/n 422, this aircraft collided with an U-12a Flamingo A-74 on the 9th of April 1934.

A-215, c/n 2250, this should also be the MM, collided with U-12a Flamingo A-111 and crashed on the 2nd May 1935.

Greetings,

Harald

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Harry

Appreciate your updates

Cheers
Stig

[Dénes Bernád]

Harald, are the Constr. Nos. of Austrian FIAT CR.32s known?
If yes, I am wondering if 928 (or 926) and 518 are among them?
Thanks,