Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

[udf_00]

Two pics dated (27) March 1940 here :

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.php

Keyword(s) : K9408


PMoN according to the captions, but ...

[Larry Hickey]

udf__00,

Thanks for sending this info and the IWM photo references. Peter Cornwell is checking this out and we may have to change the identity for K9408 for the FL photos of PMoN. In the meantime, does anyone have any photos of PMoN that clearly show the SN on the force-landed a/c? Unfortunately mine aren't clear enough to be certain. Since plane codes can be changed, we need to be careful before we change the ID of this one in our DB.

This is precisely why I'm putting this info on TOCH, to get the bugs out before this later goes into print. By moving this one, this may force a re-arrangement of the chairs for ascribing dates and codes so some other FL Battles during the WC.

Regards,

[Martin Gleeson]

Larry,
.
Concerning first names and crew positions.
I had been meaning to reply on this matter on the thread you began some weeks ago, but will do so now. I agree with this approach 100% and will do whatever I can to assist you, Peter and the EOE team to achieve this regarding the British and Commonwealth personnel. Because of the Air Force Lists, London Gazette website, etc. I expect the first names of officers can be found in at least 98% of cases. NCOs and Other Ranks will be more difficult, but most should be possible to identify. There are many resources available, not least colleagues on this and other forums. A service number if available is often the key.
Apart from any other consideration recording their full names provides a greater tribute to those men, and gives their descendants a much greater link to them and awareness of their exploits and sacrifices.
.
On that PH / PM Battle photo I believe it is a 12 Sqn. aircraft also. Both the unit code location and style of fin flash leads me to this conclusion.
.
'K9408' / PM-N.
I cannot get any clarity on the two IWM photos. I suppose we would have to purchase them and perhaps that is the idea !
There is at least one photo of PM-N showing the serial L5446. It is on page 269 of 'TBoF,T&N' but was captioned L5516 at the time of publication. At least one other E-bay photo appears to show the bottom part of '..446'. Oddly PM-N (L5446) has a standard application of the unit code and individual letter, ie. on either side of the roundel. Whereas most 103 Sqn. machines have all three letters to one side of the roundel. While the IWM images are not very clear at least one of them seems not to have a letter after the roundel. Although we do not have details of the history of L5446 ( THE BATTLE FILE ) I do not believe it was a replacement aircraft acquired after May 10th to replace another PM-N lost on the 10th or 12th. The codes are too neatly painted ! Looking at the individual serials used by 103 Sqn. it seems the first replacement aircraft they received was on the 14th (P5237, and this survived the campaign). Next on the 18th they acquired their first proper batch of replacements (seven). All this leads me to believe that PM-N was L5446 and was on the squadron strenght on May 10th.
As far as I know K9408 was not belly-landed on May 10th after suffering heavy damage. K9408 was recovered and sent back to the UK where it was repaired and flew again in training roles.
.
Regards,
.
Martin.

[Peter Cornwell]

Martin, as usual, provides some cautionary and most welcome clarity. IF the IWM photos do indeed show K9408 with codes PM*N taken in March 1940 then it is most unlikely that it still carried the same codes on 10 May 1940 when it was damaged. It may well have got back to Mourmelon (No.88 Squadron's base) on that occasion only to be transported by them overland to Les Grandes Chappelles some days later from where it was eventually recovered for repair but this part of its history is somewhat speculative. Four days later L5446 PM*N was brought down (evidenced by photographs) which is too soon for another aircraft(replacement or no) to have been so coded. And yes, my photo caption on p279 of BoFrT&N did get it wrong.

[Faenor]

Hi,

browsing in e-bay i found this photo :

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Flugzeu...item3f08efcf3d

Its some maschine from this thread ?

Faenor

[Peter Cornwell]

14 May 1940: Battle K9374. Hit by intense flak during attack on bridge at Mouzon and believed belly-landed near Machault 3.40 p.m. Flying Officer T. B. Fitzgerald slightly wounded, Corporal Madkins unhurt. Aircraft PM*J a write-off.
Tom Fitzgerald was later awarded the DFC for this action.

[Larry Hickey]

Iain and Paul,

Thanks for your added inputs to this complicated problem. Peter C. has now revised his entries, as noted above. We really do need a crash-landing location for Battle P2191, PM-K (Fitzgerald). For the present, we've changed this to "unknown France" in our DB, so if anyone has any insight into this, your comments/info would be greatly appreciated.

We have decided to go forward with full names and crew positions for the British loss/damages/casualties DB, thanks for an offer from Martin Gleeson to take that ask on for the EOE Working Group. Thanks Martin! He will be using this board for questions and problems relating to that subject for the EOE Project, leaving Peter Cornwell to focus on getting the most accurate overall loss entries as possible.

Regards,

[Iain Torrance]

On the broader subject of Battle identification would be grateful if anybody can help with a few IDs:

QT*L and QT*I - many photos seen, but never with visible serial no

QT*H - again many photos of this one, bombed in standing, it is probably L5440 at Berry-au-Bac but not confirmed

GB*O - photographed on train with Hurricane P2676 and battle MQ*V srl
L5461. GB*O believed to start with a 'K' serial no.

thanks

Iain

[Larry Hickey]

Iain,

Have just received the updated DB entires for 142 SQ from Peter Cornwell and ran them all through the photo DB. I note that he does not have SN for QToL or QToH, although he does suggest that the latter was probably written off at Berry-au-Buc, but does not confirm this.

For QToI, he has:

May 19, 1940: Battle K7696. Brought down by ground fire during attack on targets west of Laon and believed belly-landed near Marle (France at) 10.45 a.m. Pilot Officer H. H. Taylor, Sergeant S. Lang, and LAC H. Long all captured. Aircraft QT*I a write-off.

I note that one photo of QToI in the EOE Photo DB had this note in German on the back: "Shot down near Marle 1940.”

I'm going to list our questions concerning 142 SQ photos that we can't identify in a separate posting.

Regarding the photos of GBoO, I apparently have the same photos on the freight car as you do in the DB, but with no SN ID.

So, it appears that, except for QToI, we're on the same page as you are, seeking the same info. Given the good condition of these planes, we'll probably eventually get readable SN on photos for them.

Regards,

[Iain Torrance]

yes agree for QT-I that is the most likely but never got the evidence, any idea what supports that attribution?
for QT-L I have been given crash site of Saint-Loup-Terrier, not got anything else.

thanks

Iain