Response to Glider and Juha.

[tcolvin]

Glider,

1. Armour on the aircraft types under discussion was as follows;

Typhoon 1B: 551 lbs, covering radiator, cockpit sides, cockpit floor and 8mm seat back.

Ju-87G-1: 1,540 lbs; 8mm ventral armour and armoured radiator; 4mm armoured pilot's seat with 4mm side and 8mm back armour. 75mm armoured windscreen; 8mm armoured rear bulkhead 5mm armoured floor for gunner.

Il-2m3: 2,092 lbs; nose and centre section pressed from 6mm rolled armour around the engine and crew; 8mm ventral armour around oil cooler ; 55-65mm armoured windscreen glass; 8mm armoured canopy roof; 13mm armoured bulkheads behind gunner and spinner.

Hs-129B: 2,370lbs; spot-welded nose and centre section of 6 - 12mm armour plate; 75mm armoured windscreen in 6mm armoured frame.

It is reasonable to call the Typhoon 1B unarmoured; the Ju-87G-1 armoured; and the Il-2m3 and Hs-129B heavily armoured.

2. I recommend you read any of Peter C Smith's books on dive bombers. His best summary, IMHO, is 'The History of Dive Bombing. A Comprehensive History from 1911 Onward', published in 2007. I can warrant it will change your views on dive bombing.

3. Re Hillman; there was in fact no air strike planned or made. Support was available from naval guns, but the Naval FOO was killed in the attack on Morris.
My point is that had there been an Army Air Force instead of 2TAF, then the Vengeances would have been on stand-by for just such an eventuality. Stukas, I believe, had an SD-500 HL (Hohl-Ladung or Hollow Charge) bomb which was reputed to penetrate 11½ ft of reinforced concrete, which was possibly good enough to neutralise Hillman. The Vengeance could lift 1 ton or two such bombs.
source: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...rge-bombs.html

4. These bombs would also have done the trick if used on the Wesel bridges. Or the Vengeances could have used the American 1,600lb AP bomb, or any of the other bomb types, such as the 500 lb SAP, that were dropped on the Tirpitz in April 1944.

5. It may smack of hyperbole, but a reduction in operations forced by FLAK losses is reasonably termed a defeat.

6. I do not know, frankly, what to make of the IL-2 losses. We need someone to get a grip on the subject. I am, however, persuaded that the VVS operated to a different standard of army support compared with 2TAF, and their high losses reflect this. In other words, if 2TAF had attempted what the VVS achieved, they would have been forced early on to cease operations. The payoff for the Soviets from the VVS losses was that they took Berlin and achieved their war aims.

7. I think we have reached the stage where John Beaman thought we were at yesterday when he closed the thread. I'm not sure I have anything more to contribute, and the objective to get a handle on the VVS has not been, and seemingly cannot be, achieved.

Tony

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by tcolvin

Glider,

1. Armour on the aircraft types under discussion was as follows;

Typhoon 1B: 551 lbs, covering radiator, cockpit sides, cockpit floor and 8mm seat back.

Ju-87G-1: 1,540 lbs; 8mm ventral armour and armoured radiator; 4mm armoured pilot's seat with 4mm side and 8mm back armour. 75mm armoured windscreen; 8mm armoured rear bulkhead 5mm armoured floor for gunner.

Il-2m3: 2,092 lbs; nose and centre section pressed from 6mm rolled armour around the engine and crew; 8mm ventral armour around oil cooler ; 55-65mm armoured windscreen glass; 8mm armoured canopy roof; 13mm armoured bulkheads behind gunner and spinner.

Hs-129B: 2,370lbs; spot-welded nose and centre section of 6 - 12mm armour plate; 75mm armoured windscreen in 6mm armoured frame.

It is reasonable to call the Typhoon 1B unarmoured; the Ju-87G-1 armoured; and the Il-2m3 and Hs-129B heavily armoured.

Tony

All that heavy armour is not much use against the .50".

Penetration capabilities of a single .50 caliber M2 AP round fired from a 45-inch barrel.

Range > Armor Plate (homogeneous) - Armor Plate (face-hardened)
219 yd (200 m) > 1.0 in (25.4 mm) - 0.9 in (22.9 mm)
656 yd (600 m) > 0.7 in (17.8 mm) - 0.5 in (12.7 mm)
1,640 yd (1,500 m) > 0.3 in (7.6 mm) - 0.2 in (5.1 mm)