Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949

[arnaud]

Andy,

Thank you for this precise information. So is there a "Casualty file" for pilot Allen missing on May 18th 1940?

It would be so easier for historians if all national archives would be opened to public which is obviously not the case... When they will be free to public, nobody will care about it. But that the point of the so well named "Secret Defence"... I just hope they won't destroy them as the R.A.F. did for thousands of log books.

We have the same problem in France, but in Great-Britain it is a lot more important...

Bon vol

[Andy Saunders]

Yes, there would be a casualty file for Allen but all Cas.Files are currently "closed".

However, look elsewhere on this forum for discussion about release of Casualty Reports to TNA Kew under AIR 81 documents.

[arnaud]

Andy,

Excuse me but I have some difficulties to understand what happened at Neuvilly. I need your help...

1. So there is an unknown pilot found at Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P3533 in 2007. A pilot, or better to write half a pilot, was found here. Could you tell us in which cemetery this half unidentified body will be buried or is buried? So this pilot is unidentified and of course will receive an unmarked grave.

2. There is another Hurricane shot down at Neuvilly with another unidentified pilot. Where is buried this body? As I understand, the MOD now have received information that this particular body buried (where you know) came from Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P2555. As they do have a report saying Allen was shot down on May 18th 1940 in Hurricane No. P2555, MOD have identified this unmarked grave as Allen. Then MOD asked to change the stone (where you know) for another one with Allen written on it.

If you can explain me the situation in a simple way, I would be very pleased.

If I understand well, but I need your explications, there are two Hurricane crash sites at Neuvilly
1. Hurricane No. P3533 : this one is confirmed by many documents.
2. Hurricane No. P2555 : for that one I have not one single information. Do you have any information of this second crash site at Neuvilly?

Bye

[Andy Saunders]

Arnaud

Your summary is pretty much accurate.

However, the MOD have only confirmed to the family that Derek Allen was lost in P2555 on 18 May 1940 but do not say where.

I am in regular contact with the family and they are asking for further information, I believe, from the MOD. Once they have this information I should know and I will be in a position to inform you.

As to the unidentified man from P3533, I do not know yet which CWGC cemetery he will be buried in, but I will be told in due course.

Until certain matters are sorted out with the family with regards to the "unknown" grave, including the wording on the new headstone etc, I am not in a position to give you any more details at present.

As soon as I can say more, I will.

[arnaud]

Andy,

If I knew in which village is this unmarked grave soon becoming Allen's one, I would be perhaps in position to give some more details from French archives as the document about P3533...

At Neuvilly cemetery : P/O Clifford 26 Sqn 19/05/40 is buried : so three aircraft, 1 man killed and 2 men missing in this only village in two days...

[Andy Saunders]

Yes, I have seen Clifford's grave in a WW1 cemetery but do not know his crash site.

I will PM you later in the week with details of the cemetery where Allen is buried.

[arnaud]

Andy,

I have just checked my archive for this Lysander at Neuvilly.

I have a complete report from Red Cross with full detail of that Lysander. But there is a big problem because the Lysander I have at Neuvilly is NOT P/O Clifford’s one (buried at Neuvilly) but LAC Bettany’s one (buried at Landrecies)!

So to sum up at Neuvilly we have:

1. Hurricane No. P3533 : Unknow pilot. this one is confirmed by many documents.
2. Hurricane No. P2555 : (identified apparently as P/O Allen) for that one I have not one single information.
3. Lysander No. ??? : LAC Bettany, I have a full report with a firm identification as for instance a letter of his mother of April 25 1940 found among other things.
4. Lysander no. ??? : P/O Clifford for that one I have not one single information.

I find those identifications in Red at Neuvilly weird… Just a general feeling.

[arnaud]

The Red Cross report says the other airman in P/O Bettany’s Lysander run away from the crash site wounded.

But by checking British archive, LAC Bettany and P/O Clifford were in the same aircraft.

So P/O Clifford died near Landercies : one unique Lysander and not two…

[arnaud]

So to sum up

1. LAC Bettany buried at Neuvilly (in the place where is buried actually P/O Clifford at Neuvilly) : I have the full report from Red Cross who identified the dead body at Neuvilly as Bettany and not Clifford.

2.P/O Clifford buried at Landrecies (in the place where is buried actually LAC Bettany at Landrecies) : the one mentioned in the Red Report leaving the crash site wounded and finally died at a hospital at Landrecies.

Identifications are wrongs according to my Red Cross report.

[Andy Saunders]

So, your Red Cross evidence is that the graves of Clifford and Bettany are switched? If I understand you correctly, then you have the wrong headstones over the graves?? Clifford is Bettany and vice-versa?

I cannot add anything of any substance, I'm afraid, just to say that it might be as well to submit your information and evidence to the MOD here in the UK. I'm sure they will have a look at these cases and refer the matter on to the AHB and examine Cas. files if appropriate. If this results in confirmation then they will, as a matter of course, notify the CWGC to change the headstones.

It does seem very strange, I must say.