he177 losses query

[Brian Bines]

Stig,

Difficult these KG40 losses as the 7th could either be 6/7 or 7/8th, wn 550117 has code F8+HN hand notated on the NVM under date 7-6-44. WN 550206 crew of Oblt Muller is dated 7.6.44 but the K report says it was shot down between midnight and 0030hrs on 8-6-44.
RAF claims for the period for He177's.are generally in the 0030 to 0400hrs timescale. On the 6/7th June claims were made at 0125, 0256, 0314 and 0349 hrs while on 7/8 June claims were made at 0105, 0125 and 0155 hrs. Against this NVM's have 8 He177's lost on the two nights 550211, 550021 are dated as 8-6-44 550206 is dated 7-4-44 but the K says it was shot down on the 8th (see above), while those dated as the 7th are 550112, 550117, 550197, 535731 (note date changed on NVM from 8th to 7th), 550204 fell to enemy 'Jagern' (not noted as Nachtjager) at St. Laurent bei Marchesoire on the 7-6-44. I do not know if this indicates it was caught by day fighters.
I do not know if this helps but any clarification appreciated,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Chris Goss]

The problem with He 177 losses are the inaccuracies with dates etc. First of all, there was a day claim for a He 177-1/Lt S C Wilkerson of 361st FG. Another problem is some He 177s were lost without crew casualties-12-13 Jun 44, a 4/KG 40 crew which was later shot down 9 Jul 44 was shot down by a Mosquito of 410 Sqn-according to the crew, the only casualty was Uffz Erich Richter but there is no mention of him in the NVM!

[mjbollinger]

Hi everyone,

Various sources report a total of 13 II./KG 40 aircraft lost on the night of 6/7 June, another 7 lost on the night of 7/8 June, two more on 10/11 June and three on 13/14 June, for a total of 25 lost that month. Operational records for II./KG 40 indicate a total of 23 aircraft were lost due to enemy action in June 1944 with one other lost due to other causes. So while the numbers don't match exactly, it is these daily totals are not unreasonable. Unfortunately, these estimates are not accompanied by WkNr or aircraft markings so a reconciliation with bottom-up information is complicated. I'd like to try nonetheless...

Here's what I have

Night of 6/7 June
- As suggested by Chris Goss above
MH/550206/1/KG 40/Mueller
FK/550204/2/KG 40/Hein (shot down & crashed at St Laurent)
KK/550197/2/KG 40/Timm
LK/535731/2/KG 40/Bernrieder (reported as following day by Griehl
? 5/KG 40/Mueller
? 5/KG 40/Hanke -- possibly HN/550117 below
- Other mentioned from various sources
HN/550117/5/KG 40 /reported as MIA -- possibly Hanke above
BK/550198/? reported as a fighter kill
That still leaves 5 or 6 others unaccounted for if the total of 13 is to be believed

Night of 7/8 June
- Possible losess from various sources, mostly Griehl
KK/550197 - but this overlaps with Timm above
MK/550211
DX/535673
These sources also report LK/535731 but I have relocated that above

Night of 10/11 June
- From various sources
BN/550067/4/KG 40 fighter
UX/550074/5/KG 40 AA (this is KM+UX)
- Other possible losses
JH/550175 MIA
DH/550199 MIA

Night of 13/14 June
- From various sources, mostly Griehl
??/550080/4/KG 40 MIA
??/550087/6/KG 40 Enemy action -- possibly shot down by Ivor Cosby
??/500146/4/KG 40 unknown
- And possibly
FH/550216/? MIA

Can anyone assist with this reconciliation?

Thanks

Marty

[Brian Bines]

Marty as far as I can make out from Griehl/NVM's I and II/KG40 lost 23 He177's with crew casualties in June plus the 4/KG40 aircraft on 12/13th June as stated by Chris. 4 more were lost on 4/5 July on operations,with 3 more losses on non-ops between 6-9th July. As Chris says there other losses with no crew casualties, the figure of 13 on 6/7th June seems too high unless aircraft were strafed on the ground.
RAF nightfighters claimed 19 He177's between 6th June to 5th July and Allied fighters claimed at least two during the day one on 7th.June and one on 9th. July.

Dates below as shown on NVM

7-6-44
Possibly 550112 (only last no. on NVM) Ofw Muller 5/40
550117 Uffz Hauke 5/40
550197 Ofw Timm 2/40
535731 Ofhr Berarieder 2/40
550204 Ofhr Hein 2/40
550206 Obln. Muller ( but noted on K as 8th June ) 1/40

8-6-44
550211 Ltn Wadle 2/40
550083 Oblt Busch 6/40

9-6-44
550198 B Fhj.Fw Winarski +, aircraft shot down 2/40
535670 Ofw Henze 2/40

10-6-44
550199 Uffz deVries 1/40 ( K shows 0500hrs 10th June)
550175 Ofw Konopek 1/40 (K shows 0335hrs 11th June)
550074 NVM shows cause Flak, Fhj.Ofw Matschke +3 killed 5/40
550067 Uffz Hille 5/40
? Stfw Raimer 4/40

11-6-44
? two crew wounded 4/40

13-6-44
550221 two crew wounded 6/40
550215 Uffz Bruhan 1/40

14-6-44
550087 two crew missing 6/40
550080 Ltn Reichmuller 4/40
550078 Uffz Klavehn 6/40
550146 Oblt Meissner 4/40
550098 two crew missing following NJ attack 4/40

5-7-44
550210 Oblt Hunold 4/40 (K shows 0010hrs 5th July)
550213 Oblt Hauke 5/40
550203 Fw Dotsch 6/40
550195 Oblt Schulte-Vogelheim 6/40 (K shows 0120hrs 5th July)

Apologies for any errors typos,

Regards

Brian Bines

[zorglub]

Hello Brian ,

Back again on He177 losses that 12/13 June 44.
Is there a NVM for 550221 of 4./KG40 , Ofw. Neuenfeldt and crew ? C.Goss reports no injuries/casualties among the crew members.
I have possibly pinpointed this crash east Le Havre.

There is also lack of definite data about losses on first wave of Steinbock on 21/22 January 44 . At least four bombers went down near Rouen at 20.00 before crossing the French coast , but not much details in " The Last Blitz " by Mackay , mainly about 535560 , 535743 , 535741 and 535745 ! More details are most welcome !

Is there also NVM for these losses ? At last did He177s wear incendiaries ?

Zorglub

[Brian Bines]

Hello,

This is what I have :-

535560 - Suffered a fire in number 4 engine and was destroyed in emergency landing, crew assumed safe so no NVM

535743 - The NVM for the loss of Oblt. Waterbeck, shot down Hindhead Surrey, shows he was flying this aircraft. However examination of the wreckage shows he was flying 535747. A Luftwaffe report on aircraft with technical problems shows that 535473 developed a fire in the right engines while at 5000m and crashed, no location shown. Once again crew assumed safe so no NVM

535741 - Crew of Oblt. Botterbrodt failed to return from attack on London NVM shows all crew missing, no report of any bodies recovered as far as I know.

535745 - NVM states Beim Anflug z. Nachtangriff auf London Gesturzt. Westl. Rouen/Westfr. Ff Ofw Hugo Fleischer and four other crewmen killed, it would appear the Bm survived.

As well as this He177s 2224, 2221 returned (abgebrochen) with technical problems a Bs in 5736 had 'hohenkrank' altitude sickness so aircraft returned, and 5740 returned due to a overheated engine.

All the above are shown as on 21-01-1944. As regards Ofw Neuenfeldt on 12/13-07-1944 all the crew baled out without injury so there would be no NVM,

Hope this helps

Regards

Brian Bines

[zorglub]

Many thanks Brian , surely that's help !

I've just noticed that the Kracker Luftwaffe list states aboard 5745 Bm Ofw. Alfred Link was a survivor. If so the bomber crashed on the way to the target , not the return flight ( three planes lost near Rouen around 20h00 from the local archives , at least one deeply buried carrying incendiaries ).

Seems also strange the Luftwaffe report about 5743 did not give the crash-site location ( also most probably near Rouen ).

Zorglub

[Brian Bines]

Hello Zorglub,

Glad to be of some help. As far as I can tell He177s carried H.E. bombs rather than incendiaries. A Do217 of 1/KG2 , which would have been likely to have carried two AB1000 containers, crashed at Bardouville to the west of Rouen. The crew baled out following engine trouble on the outward flight. The B. Oblt Kurt Schulze retrained as a fighter pilot finishing the war in JG5,

Regards

Brian Bines

[zorglub]

Fantastic Brian !

You have identified the crash at Bardouville ! Many thanks again !

A remaining bomber went down at Boos ( Rouen airfield ) with incendiaries , no fate of crew reported in the local archives , so either a Ju88 or a Do217.

The third bomber went down in a wood at Tourville-la-Rivière , just south-east Rouen. Surely a He177 as two bombs exploded , so was also on the outward flight. No fate of crew too but an packed parachute and a flying helmet were found close to the wreckage.

Zorglub