Trying to ID shot up Do17P that FL on Waalhaven AF, Netherlands, about May 10-12, 1940

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

For the EOE project, we're trying to ID a Do17P that made a forced landing on Waalhaven AF, Holland, sometime during the first couple of days of the Blitzkrieg. It does not carry a unit insignia and the a/c code may be 1Y+EA. The second letter is certainly a K, X or Y and the E is in white, with the last letter uncertain. One of our Working Group members suggests that this may be an aircraft of "Flugbereitschaft Luftflotte 4." I don't find the code 1Y in any of my references, or 1X for that matter. Does anyone know what the full code of this a/c was, and what unit this may represent? Any date and details for the FL? It has many bullet holes in it, but it could have made a FL early on May 10th, suffering a left main gear collapse, then been shot up on the ground during the fighting to seize Waalhaven. On further study, this aircraft was probably shot up by a Dutch? fighter in the air as the angle of the many MG bullet holes in the top of the wings and fuselage could not have been done by ground fire. Some Allied fighter must have forced this aircraft to make a crash-landing on Waalhaven Airfield.

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Further evaluation of the key photo in the EOE photo collection, showing part of the code on this a/c, indicates that what I thought was a K, X, or Y, might be a "4" for the second letter of the a/c code. This might make this ?4+E? The last letter might be an "A." It has been suggested that "it might also be an aircraft from the HQ of an Air Corps or Air Division." I'm aware of five photos of this aircraft, some specifically captioned "Waalhaven." The presence of a large amount of wreckage and smashed aircraft, including a destroyed Hs126 from the Recon Staffel of the 7th Air Division (4Q code), and several Ju52s, makes that location certain, probably within the first day or two of the German assault on Holland. Due to about 50 bullet holes in the aircraft, there is little doubt the Do17P would have been salvaged. So, what aircraft could this one be? One of the photos was won by "5901Johan" some three years ago, and just possibly this photo, if I can contact him, might be able to clarify at least the last letter of the a/c code. I assume that he was probably a purchaser in the Netherlands. Can anyone help?

Regards,

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Larry,

I know who has bought the pictures, I've send an email for further info.

Regards,
Hans

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

One of our EOE members has sent the info that the "Waalhaven Do 17 could be coded B4/P4+EA - Aufklst.zbV of Luftflotte 2."

I note in Merrick's latest "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings: 1933-1945" Vol II, that "B4" is listed as the code for the "Nachtjagdstaffel Finnland/Norwegen." "B4," on the other hand, is listed as the code for "Führungskette X Fliegerkorps and Transport Flieger Staffel Nord (Ost.)." Neither of these seems to be correct for this a/c. Does anyone else know of any examples of either B4 or P4 as the code on a Do17P during the spring of 1940? This listing for a unit known as "Aufklst.zbV of Luftflotte 2" could be right if this was a recon unit for the Ju52 transport units conducting the assault landings on Waalhaven Airfield, near Rotterdam, on and immediately after May 10, 1940. Does anyone have any record of a unit code for this "Aufklst.zbV of Luftflotte 2?" Can anyone help pin down a hard date when this a/c landed and was shot up there? Is there any narrative account anywhere of the capture of Waalhaven that describes activities by this unit or any Do17P units?

We're making progress.

Regards,

[obdl3945]

Hi, Larry...

According to Rosch, Luftwaffe Codes, Markings & Units 1939-45, both 'B4' and 'P4' were used by several units. In addition to the ones you've already mentioned, there is a listing for B4+DA, a Do17 (sub-type not mentioned) belonging to Luftdienst-Kommando 1. Luftdienst is defined in the glossary as - 'air service: target-towing, supply, ice information etc'. Although apparently disbanded in June 1944, there is no date confirming its inception.

'P4' is provided with three Heinkel He111 examples, two separate ones as P4+BA and one as P4+AA. An He111H-4 coded P4+BA - W.Nr 3257 - was apparently brought down over the east coast of Scotland on October 1, 1940 by flak and at the time was assigned to Führungskette/X.Fliegerkorps, which you already mentioned but this entry perhaps gives you a better timeline.

Perhaps this may be of help to you.

Regards,

Paul

[Pieter H]

Larry,

The Auflkl Staffel z.b.V assigned to Luftflotte 2 used code T5, and was operated under Fliegerkorps z.b.V 2 (General Putzier).

The Do17P at Waalhaven is in my view most likely .Y+EA. In Barry Rosch no code nY is assigned to any specific Luftwaffe unit.
However, 1Y+CA and +DA were seen on Bf108's end 1939, early 1940.
That would fit with 1Y+EA of our Do17P.

A wild guess, also based on the Z5 code discussion for A.St.(F)/I. Flakkorps in the prarallel thread: could 1Y have been the code for A.St.(F)/II. Flakkorps?
This unit was known to have operated also from Waalhaven from 11 or 12 May onwards, and is the only one operating in the area of which I don't have confirmed unit code.

Regards, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Further to this thread, Peter C. has pointed out in a direct email to me that the code on the Waalhaven Do17 appears very similar to the one on the Do17 that crashed through the roof of a house at Mouscron (Moeskroen), Belgium on May 25, 1040. The unit codes have never been quite clear on any of the several known photos of that crash. But in comparison with the known info on the Waalhaven crash could very well be B4+HA, with the "H" being in white, as is the "E" on the Waalhaven crash. The "4" appears to be an unusual open top numeral, as does the one on the Waalhaven crash. Robert has also sent me photos of two Do17s that appear to carry this same B4 code. In our EOE Luftwaffe DB we presently have the Mouscron (Moeskroen) crash listed as belonging to the Aufkl Staffel zbV Lfl2. Does that fit a unit that would have been active in the air assault on Waalhaven on May 10th?

We presently carry the May 25th Mouscron loss in our Luft DB as:

"AufklStaffel zbV. Luftflotte 2 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by AA fire during a reconnaissance sortie and crashed onto houses at 115-117 Groenstraat in Mouscron 10.15 a.m. BO Lt Herbert Mögelin, BM Fw Günter Dorowski, FF Uffz Hans Metzger, and BF Uffz Johann Steinhagen all killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

This theory seems to have real merit, and would actually resolve the codes on two WC Do17 crashes that have so far remained a mystery to the EOE Working Group team.

If the code on the Waalhaven crash is B4+EA, and "B4" can be established as belonging to the "AufklStaffel zbV. Luftflotte 2," the only remaining info needed to create an accurate loss entry would be to identify the date (most likely May 10, 1940), the circumstances of the loss incident and the crew of this a/c. The latter would be a real long shot if there were no reported casualties.

This feels like it is beginning to come together. Your further comments and ideas are solicited. Peter Evans may want to note this thread on the LEMB website as well, in case there are people who read that board that don't often read the TOCH board.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Peter Cornwell has evaluated the evidence for the Do17 down on Waalhaven AF, and the issues relating to Z5 coded Do17s during the WC of May-June, 1940. Here is what he sent to me in his effort to unravel the codes and losses to these a/c:

"I'm fairly well satisfied that B4 is established as the unit code for
Aufklst.zbV. Luftflotte 2 and thus possibly also to be found in various
ancillary units to which its aircraft may have been subordinated on a
temporary basis or used as reinforcements viz. Aufklst.Fl.Korps II,
Aufklst.7 Fl.Div.(usual codes 4Q), Korpsfuhrungskette Luftlandekorps etc.
These latter two only being applicable during the invasion of the low
countries during May/June 1940 I believe.

That said, I can find only four Do17 losses to all such units between 10-20
May 1940:

10.5.40 Aufklst.7 Fl.Div. Do17Z Listed in QMG returns 18.5.40
Nachtrag 10.5.40 = 4Q+JH down at Wilnis

10.5.40 Aufklst.7 Fl.Div. Do17Z listed in QMG returns 18.5.40
Nachtrag 10.5.40 = 4Q+KH down near Westmaas

16.5.40 Aufklst.Flakkorps I Do17Z listed in QMG returns 16.5.40
= down near Ochamps

20.5.40 Aufklst.Flakkorps I Do17M listed in QMG returns 23.5.40 Nachtrag

20.5.40 = Z5+BH belly-landed; location not established (?)

Note: Aufklst.Flakkorps I was subordinate to Luftflotte 3 so it is unlikely
in the extreme that they would be operating aircraft from Luftflotte 2. It
would seem, therefore, that we need to extend the search parameters or are
dealing with an hitherto unrecorded loss for Aufklst.zbV. Luftflotte 2 so
establishing the correct date and further details may be somewhat difficult."

Does anyone have any additional evidence or information to further clarify our research into these losses and firmly establish the ID of the B4 and Z5 codes observed on Do17s?

Regards,