Friendly fire WWII

[Brian]

Hi Kyrre

Do you mean Bo Widfeldt's books? If so, I have and am in touch with Bo. Thanks anyway.

Hi Jules - yes, sadly bombers did account for many friendly fire incidents - quite understandable in the circumstances. Do you have any personal recollections?

Cheers,
Brian

[atckyrre]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hi Kyrre

Do you mean Bo Widfeldt's books? If so, I have and am in touch with Bo. Thanks anyway.

Doh. Minor brainfart. Yes I meant Widfeldt.

One slightly odd situ that might not be for your book but interresting nevertheless is the incident with the 11 Ju-52s that landed on Hartvikvann in Northern Norway during the invasion in 1940. Off the top of my head one got airborne while the rest remained on the ice in various states, though some quite flyable. At one point the Norwegians chased the Germans away and the planes were all of a sudden Norwegian. Apparently they started to prepare the planes for a move to Bardufoss further north.
Alas the FAA was not informed about this and the planes were strafed by Skuas. It could be that they were also attacked by Norwegian Heinkel 115's but right now I can't remember all the details.

I'm sure others has got the proper account should you be interested

Kyrre

[atckyrre]

I was reading the story about the Norwegian Airforce during the war (Luftforsvarets historie - 5 år i utlegd, by Vera Henriksen) and chanced upon a friendly fire incident.
One of the previously Norwegian Heinkel He115's (Ex. "F.56" of the Royal Norwegian Navy Air Force") ,flying with the socalled Helensburgh Group with the Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment, was shot at by two Polish Spitfires near Isle of Wight some time in the spring of '42. Starboard propeller was shot to pieces and the wing started burning. But the aircraft was saved only to be destroyed later in a fueling accident.

One curiousity was the incident where previous F.64, which was a He115 captured from the Germans in 1940, was shot up by two Bf109's at its Malta mooring early 1942... (Lamb, War in a Stringbag, p213).

Kyrre

[atckyrre]

Since I'm on a roll and I'm on a nightshift here are two Norwegian pilots listed as fallen from friendly fire in the same book:
- Lt. Per Adolph Thorén, 85 Sqn, 08.10.42, Presumed shot down by British ackack at Dover
- Maj. Leif Lundsten, 331(N) Sqn, 09.06.44, Shot down by allied ack ack

[Brian]

Hi Kyrre

Thanks for the stream of incidents. However, I do have note of all mentioned, but please keep me advised of any others you may come across. Don't work too hard - it makes me feel guilty!!

Have a nice one

Brian

[ahafan]

try this weird one'-about 10 Civilian planes were shot down over the Irish sea.north of the Isles of Mann;;from october 1941- early 42-a P40 american flown missing was listed as ferrying too prestwick..
reasons no idea? info lost circa 2005, that I read on the net..
think the site was history of Raf ?.. i tried to find more since but no luck at All
sharon

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Two webpages in Russian, Google translation is your friend

On 6 August 1945, two Soviet patrol boats were attacked by US aircraft off the Pacific coast of USSR, and 8 (or 11) Soviet sailors were killed, while they claimed an aircraft shot down.

Source:
http://www.piragis.ru/publikatscii-p...-moryakov.html
http://forum.patriotcenter.ru/index.php?topic=5296.0

Still needing some research on this case.

Best regards

Laurent

[Juha]

Brian
if You got 3 incidents (LW's Schumacher vs DH 89, Karu vs. He 111 and Nissinen vs. Ju 188) those were all I can remember from recent years that were discussed on that board. If You want more info on the Nissinen vs. Ju 188, please send a PM.

Juha

[Laurent Rizzotti]

The list below, listing cases of friendly fire where French aircraft were involved from September 1939 to June 1940 (known to me) is drawn from the following sources:
Martin's book about Armée de l'Air losses ("Ils étaient là")
Gillet's books on French victoires (tome 1, 10-15 May, tome 2, 16 May-4 June)
AéroJournal n° 3 (about night fighters Potez 631, often identified as Bf110) and n° 18 (about Aéronavale)

16 Oct 1939: Mureaux 115 GAO 1/520 damaged by 1 Morane 406 over Saar Valley. Pilot wounded

22 Nov 1939: Bloch 131 GR I/36 shot down by Morane 406 GC II/2 over Aisne. 2 KIA, 2 WIA

21 Dec 1939: Potez 637 GR II/33 shot down by 2 Hurricanes over Meuse. 2 KIA, 1 WIA

14 Apr 1940: Dutch submarine O10 bombed in error off Dutch coast by two V.156F of AB3. No damage

10 May 1940: bomber claimed shot down by 3 pilots GC III/1 over Termonde was probably Blenheim L9246 57 Sqn RAF.

12 May 1940: Fairey Fox 7/III/3 (Belgium) shot down by GC III/2 & GC III/7 near Huy. Crew unhurt.

13 May 1940: two Potez 631 ECMJ 1/16 damaged by Hurricanes near Betheniville. No loss.

14 May 1940: four Battles 142 Sqn RAF shot down by GC III/7 in Sedan area. 5 KIA

15 May 1940: Bloch 152 of GC II/1 possibly shot down by friendly fire (in fight, another pilot of the same unit fired on an aircraft that he was unable to identify and saw him crash, no German loss in the area).

17 May 1940: three Blenheims 82 Sqn RAF shot down by GC I/4 and AC2 off Ostend. 9 KIA

18 May 1940: LeO 451 GB II/31 shot down by French AA near Meaux. 1 KIA
18 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 2/13 hit by He 111, Bf 110, French AA and Morane 406 near Creil, returned to base.
18 May 1940: two Potez 631 of AC2 shot down by Blenheim 248 Sqn RAF off Nieuport. 3 KIA, 1 WIA
18 May 1940: Blenheim 235 Sqn RAF shot down by GC II/8 off Ostende. 3 KIA (shot down by Spitfire/Hurricanes according to RAF)

19 May 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by French AA at Etreux. Pilot KIA.

20 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 2/13 damaged by D520.

21 May 1940: D520 GC II/3 shot down by return fire of Potez 631 ECN 4/13 (during 4th attack) over Oise. Pilot KIA

23 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 3/13 shot down by Bloch 152 GC I/1. 1 KIA, 1 WIA
23 May 1940: French ships opened fire against a formation of V.156F of AB1 off Boulogne

24 May 1940: two Martin 167F GB I/63 shot down by Allied AA (probably British) near Lille. 5 KIA, 1 survivor
24 May 1940: Hurricane landing at Rouen attacked by a "French Curtiss" (?)

25 May 1940: 2 pilots GC II/3 wounded by French AA

26 May 1940: two Martin 167F GB I/62 shot down by GC II/3 in Amiens area.

28 May 1940: two Skuas 806 Sqn FAA reported attacks by Curtiss off Dunkerque. 1 lost, crew saved, another returned to base with gunner fatally wounded. No trace in French claims.

1 Jun 1940: Bloch 152 GC II/8 damaged by Hurricanes off Dunkerque

2 Jun 1940: Potez 631 ECN 1/13 hit by French AA over Lassigny. 1 WIA
2 Jun 1940: two Potez 631 ECN 4/13 hit by French AA over Villers-Coterets. 1 force-landed and lost. 3 WIA.

3 Jun 1940: confused battle between 501 Sqn RAF, GC I/8 and 7./JG 53 in the morning. Only two Hurricanes shot down, one possibly by a French pilot.
3 Jun 1940: Potez 631 ECN 1/13 attacked by French AA, 7 Bf 109s and 1 Bloch 152 during German raid on Paris. Pilot reported the Bf 109s were the less dangerous.
3 Jun 1940: two Potez 631 ECN 4/13 fired on by French AA (of their own airfield) during German raid on Paris.

4 Jun 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by a Polish pilot of Romorantin defence patrol. Pilot wounded.

10 Jun 1940: Laté 298 of T2 hit by AA of French ships off Honfleur and sank after landing. Crew OK.

12 Jun 1940: Bloch 152 GC I/8 shot down "in error", no more details, between Chaumont and Troyes. Pilot lightly wounded.

22 Jun 1940: CAMS 55.10 of 4S1 shot down by Morane GC III/5 near Cape Zerbib, Tunisia. Pilot wounded

Total:
17 French losses (and one more possible) to "friendly fire"
1 Belgian aircraft and 8 British one shot down by French pilots, 3 more British aircrafts possibly shot down by French pilots

For most of the cases above, more details are available

[Franek Grabowski]

Laurent

21 Dec 1939: Potez 637 GR II/33 shot down by 2 Hurricanes over Meuse. 2 KIA, 1 WIA

I have this on 18 Dec. Lt. Sagan, Lt. Castellana, Adj. Pernot downed near Souilly by F/L Reginald Eric Lovett of 73 Sqn.

18 May 1940: Blenheim 235 Sqn RAF shot down by GC II/8 off Ostende. 3 KIA (shot down by Spitfire/Hurricanes according to RAF)

Do you mean L9395?

4 Jun 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by a Polish pilot of Romorantin defence patrol. Pilot wounded.

The pilot was ppor. pil. Jan Daszewski flying MS.406C-1. French pilot was second-maitre Rochon, he passed away in 1997.Another incident involving Polish airmen occured on the same day.adj.chef Herve, plut. pil. Henryk Kowalski and plut. pil. Stanisław Tomicki flying MB.152C-1s of Chateaudun chimney flight bounced a LeO 450, reputedly with no human losses.Brian

17/7/40: Lysander L6870 from Army School of Co-operation shot down by Hurricane (who?) near Exeter 1600 hours

There was a claim for Ju 88 by 145 Sqn at the time, perhaps CR or ORB should be checked for any clue?

24/7/40: Two Skuas 808 Squadron shot down by Spitfires from 610 Squadron. Serial numbers of Skuas? Both force-landed at Worthy Down.

A question to Ray Sturtivant. I have 54 Sqn possibly involved.

13-14/11/40: Two Hampdens - X2995 of 44 Sqn and P4338 of 61 Sqn - shot down by Spitfires (who were the pilots responsible?) X2995 shortly after take-off from RAF Waddington; P4338 force-landed near RAF Leaconsfield.

I suppose you mean Leconfield. I know 303 Sqn was based there at the time, perhaps other units as well. I am not awared of involvement of the former, however.I recall a story by Tom Neill concerning Hampden icident more less at the time but I was unable to verify it.

Do you know the identity of the Polish pilot allegedly murdered by civilians?

No, I am awared of no such incident.