Bomber Aces

[Smudger Smith]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Mates, Mr Horowitz wrote about credited claims! If you want we may discuss excessive (or ridiculous to some) RFC/RNS claims!
One note, comparing German and Allied bomber airmen, one should take care of time difference between average sortie. I suppose the former took about 2 hours, while the latter perhaps 6, so no direct comparison.
Concerning multi-tour flyers, well, is there any list of them? A number of Polish airmen flew 3 tours and some of them even 4. I am not sure if only pilots or other aircrew were included in the stats (one of them says only 65 pilots finished two operational tours).

Franek,If the US Bomber fleets ‘did’ inflict such grievous losses on the German day fighters, why was there such a almighty rush to introduce long range fighter escorts, surely at the rate the US gunners were destroying the German fighters in the air, and their precision pickle barrel bombing of selected German aircraft factories on the ground, there would not have been nothing left for the fighter jocks.Regardless of claims or credited ‘kills’ the US like the RAF in the Battle of Britain over claimed, (B of B is an example) the difference is that we accept that the RAF over claimed and we try to report the known facts, the American of the other hand (Who I must point out I have the greatest respect for and am proud to say have amongst my closest friends) continue to pump-out the same old rubbish. I am sure that a simple check on Tony Woods great site will confirm that the Germans did not loss 49 fighters shot down during this encounter.I must continue to point out I am not anti US, or am I trying to belittle their tremendous courage and sacrifice in the air-war over Europe. What I am is feed-up with the continuing use of over inflated and exaggerated claims continually being used to prove a point were the US Airforce is concerned. Does it really matter if they shot down 4 or 49 German fighters on this raid? What matters is that they served, fought and died for a cause, would we think any less of them if they only shot down 4 fighters, I think not. All I ask for in return is give me facts not fiction.I am wait the shelling. !!!

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger
Just as you wrote, does it really matter if they shot down 4 or 49 German fighters on this raid? No, it does not, and this was the very approach of US command. They knew actual German losses from the other sources, and the main purpose of victory crediting and verification was propaganda and morale busting. Thus said, those airmen were credited with those victories and I feel in no position to verify them.
Otherwise, there is quite an interesting observation. Americans claim they single handedly won the war, thus causing anger of Britons, who feel forgotten. This is exactly the feeling expressed by the remaining Commonwealth nations toward Limmeys, and then again such feelings are expressed toward all the Commonwealth nations by Poles for example.
Thus said, history is not fair game but this is no reason to change it.

[Smudger Smith]

Franek

You correctly mention that the claims were known to be exaggerated and used for propaganda, then why are we still using these obviously inflated figures when discussing the contribution of the US Airforce in Europe, their contribution speaks for itself, do we use proven material or propaganda in our research.

A sweeping statements from someone so passionate about researching and defending the Polish Airforce and its fighter pilots. If I had believed certain posts about the over-claiming of a number of Polish fighter aces, then you are telling me it’s ok, because after all it does not really matter. ? I think not.


Where details / losses or claims are known use them, don’t for pity sake continue to use inflated propaganda and expect to be taken seriously. This is true of most airforces, however it just happens to be Americans who do it on a more regular basis.

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger
The problem is that those propaganda claims are actually aerial victories recognised and confirmed by authorities.
Sorry, I do not have will, knowledge or authority to revise any officially accepted figures. I understand that approved scores of such pilots like Bader or Johnson should remain untouched. It is a history. Of course, we may and we should research the other side but in most cases our knowledge and possibilities are too small to accuratelly describe what had happenned 60 years ago.
Returning to the subject of this thread. The question was about US 'bomber aces'. Mr Horowitz provided a reply, that once they were credited with 49 German aircraft destroyed, one gunner being responsible for 7 kills was promoted and sent back home. Did he provide inaccurate info?

[Smudger Smith]

FranekAccepted then, but if known to be inaccurate now, why continue to use them. All you are doing in perpetuating the myth and inaccuracy of the day. The continual use of proven inaccurate information is misleading and gives a distorted view of the aerial warfare over Europe, on all sides.Surely it is our job as researchers (I’m a amateur) to present the facts. There is a place for the propaganda aspect, it must however be used in context. When hype and propaganda distort known facts the facts are overlooked in favour of the more convenient dramatic alternative. Using the 49 aerial victories as an example, how many on this site actually believe this figure,? If a new member with only limited knowledge on the subject reads this post, his perception of the aerial battles over Europe are distorted and inaccurate. The myth continues..

[Christer Bergström]

If I had believed certain posts about the over-claiming of a number of Polish fighter aces, then you are telling me it’s ok, because after all it does not really matter. ?

Smudger Smith, due to the findings of John Alcorn - published in Aeroplane Monthly, September 1996 - the accuracy of claiming made by Polish 303 Sqn in the Battle of Britain was only 34 percent - i.e. a higher degree of overclaiming than any other unit participating in the Battle of Britain.

But I agree - it doesn't really matter that much. After all, the Poles contributed significantly to give the Luftwaffe a bloody nose, and that's what counts. The contribution by Polish 303rd Sqn even was above RAF average. You will be able to read about it in my forthcoming biographies on two Luftwaffe aces who participated in the Battle of Britain - on Hans-Ekkehard Bob and Max-Hellmuth Ostermann. (No, it is no "dual biography" this time, but two separate books, both due to be released next year, according to my publisher.)

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger
Bader or Johnson's scores were accepted then but now we know they are inaccurate. But what number of victories should we use? We cannot verify with certainity scores of any of those airmen as we cannot with US gunners. Thus official score should remain, especially as I do not see any researcher with an authority to revise official scores. Thus said, a research is always possible on those topics but it should start with 'most likely' and not with claim, that someone lied.
Oh, and may I ask to not repeat any myths concerning efficiency of British intelligence during WWII? This is exactly the very same perception of a subject as in your sample.

Mr Bergström
When will you understand that due to obvious errors John Alcorn's findings are wrong and misleading?

[Smudger Smith]

Dear Franek,

I have said all along that all sides over-claimed, however when farcical numbers are continually used, i.e. the B17 raid which started this discussion, I personally feel that these figures are misleading and inaccurate and should were possible be amended.

Regarding the contribution of the Poles, I did not intent in anyway to tarnish their tremendous achievements, I just pointed out that certain ‘articles’ refuted the original claims made by the Poles. If you are willing to except over-claiming by others, why have you taken it upon yourself to question any criticism directed at the Poles, I quote your post..


The problem is that those propaganda claims are actually aerial victories recognised and confirmed by authorities.
Sorry, I do not have will, knowledge or authority to revise any officially accepted figures. I understand that approved scores of such pilots like Bader or Johnson should remain untouched. It is a history. Of course, we may and we should research the other side but in most cases our knowledge and possibilities are too small to accurately describe what had happened 60 years ago
.

I have enjoyed our discussion Franek, however I am sure we will both agree to disagree.

Regards


From London

[Franek Grabowski]

Smudger

Originally Posted by Smudger Smith

I have said all along that all sides over-claimed, however when farcical numbers are continually used, i.e. the B17 raid which started this discussion, I personally feel that these figures are misleading and inaccurate and should were possible be amended.

This will be opening of can of worms. I would like to note, that British WWI claims are a subject of similar debates. I suppose some scores of certain RAF aces could be put with a big question mark as well.
My point is that so many years after the war, with so many documents lost, we cannot prepare a complete and reliable list of German losses, not to mention circumstances of them. In the other words, we know that US gunners overclaimed heavilly, but we cannot say to which extent. We know they claimed 50 kills, but we cannot say if Germans lost nil, 5 or 10 aircraft to their actions. Hence any verification is not possible.

Regarding the contribution of the Poles, I did not intent in anyway to tarnish their tremendous achievements, I just pointed out that certain ‘articles’ refuted the original claims made by the Poles. If you are willing to except over-claiming by others, why have you taken it upon yourself to question any criticism directed at the Poles, I quote your post..

Please, re-read the quote carefully. I say that victories officially credited by various authorities should remain unchanged. My criticism is targeted to intentional distorting and manipulating documents or even providing unfounded statement in order to show Poles in a bad light. For example, a recent lenghty discussion on Skalski's claims. The opponent simply could not accept the fact that Skalski was credited with two victories already during Polish Campaign. You are from London, if you are willing to go on Princess Gate, I may provide you with a ref. no. of a respective document, so you can draw your own conclusions.

I have enjoyed our discussion Franek, however I am sure we will both agree to disagree.

I think it is not a matter of agreeing but a matter of misunderstanding.

Regards