Possible Bf109 losses in Channel not previously reported in Sept. 1940?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

As part of the EoE Project, we've obtained copies of the all known surviving KTBs for the Seenotflugkommando units flying rescue missions over the Channel/North Sea during 1940. Most of them for the critical months of July and August, 1940 are missing, but we've found a lot of useful material in the KTBs that have survived. Working with these documents, two mysteries have emerged which our research team cannot explain. In each case a 109 pilot is reported to have been rescued but we cannot identify either of them in the loss lists. They are as follows:

15.9.40 He59 NE+TD rescued Oblt STRUNK (109) from PQ1132 (a Luftwaffe map grid square) between 13.10 – 14.00 (CET).

30.9.40 He59 SA+ER rescued Fhr PRODIN (109) from PQ0126 at 16.15 hours (CET).

Jochen Prien has looked at these and found no explanation for these reports. Strunk does not appear from any III./JG53 records to be the Oblt Siegfried STRONK of 8./JG53, who was shot down in England on Oct. 2, 1940. Does anyone have any information that would help us here?

Regards,

[Andreas Brekken]

Dear Larry.

I believe I have the same records, but as paper copies obtained years ago.

Is it possible for you to post the exact wording of the reports for these two cases?

My assumption is that the loss did not necessarily happen on the same date as the rescue, but in the days before?

There are quite a few losses with the location given as 'Kanal' and the loss reason as 'Luftkampf (F.gerettet)' during this period.

Just a thought, as I assume it would be rather difficult to rescue the aircraft in these cases

Regards,
Andreas B

[Peter Cornwell]

Scans attached as requested documenting the rescue of a so-far unidentified 109 pilot Oberlt STRUNK on 15 September 1940. There was a Walther STRUNK I know but he was promoted Oberleutnant on 1 October 1941 I believe.

[Larry Hickey]

Andres,

In the Seenotfulkdo.3 KTB under 1350 hrs "Ltn.z.S. Riemann rettet Quadrat 1132 Oberltn. Strunk (Me109)

These are apparently neither of the two known Bf109 pilot Channel rescues on the 15th: Obfw. Buchholz of I./JG 3 and Oblt. Müller of Stab III./JG 53.

The rescue of Buchholz at 1335 hrs is reported in similar fashion in the same document a short time before this mysterious Oberltn. Strunk: "Ltn.z.S. Riemann rettet Quadrat 1117 Oberfeldw. Buchholz (Me109)

I'm going to have to have Peter Cornwell post the other one, but I believe that it says essentially the same thing only on Sept. 30th.

JUST AS I WAS POSTING THIS PETER CORNWELL POSTED COPIES OF THE DOCUMENTS FOR 15 SEPTEMBER.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

And for Fhr PRODIN on 30 September 1940.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

OK, the Bruch of the He 59 on 15.9. is then the WNr 1513. I will add information to this later on.

I guess we will have to double check the remaining losses were you either have a missing pilot or no pilot mentioned - as I suppose you have already done.

I have 24 Bf 109 losses on this date.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Brian Bines]

Is there an error in the Luft QMs reports regarding the loss of He59 1513 ? The report dated 16-9-40 has that He59 TV+HO wn 1513 was lost in a crash on the 14th by Boulogne, its crew and a rescued Jagdflieger being saved. While the report of 17-9-40 has that He59 1513 crashlanded and was lost on the 15th in Quad 1117. with again no crew losses. From the reports attached on Peters posts is to correct to say NE+TD rescued two fighter pilots one in Quad 1132 and one in 1117. As the correct date for the loss of 1513 (TW+HO from Peter's reports) is the 15th. had it already picked up a third Jagdflieger, as QM's report of the 16th, prior to its loss,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Jim P.]

Could Fhr. Prodin perhaps be later-Ltn. Hans-Jürgen Frodien from JG 53? He didn't claim his first until Jul-41. Was he flying as a Fhr. that early? That's the only name that I can come up that sounds remotely close.

[Larry Hickey]

Jim,

Thanks for putting some effort into this. Jochen Prien has already looked at III./JG53 in depth for possible explanations. Perhaps he needs to look at the other JG53 units as well for this H-J Frodien. Still no explanation for these two entries.

Regards,

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

That was the only name that came even close in my search also. For the Strunk fellow there are similarly few possibilities.

Has anyone looked in depth at I./LG 2, I believe they had a couple of guys posted as missing on this date?

Well - I haven't worked much on the Kanal, and I know there are a lot of details in the books Peter Cornwell have contributed to - but here goes the raw data:

Stab/JG 3:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117143

This one is out of the question entirely

I./J.G.3:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117069

This would then be the aircraft flown by the aforementioned Bucholz

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117136

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117066

Both of these are listed as missing in action, and must be on the initial list of possible matches

III./J.G.26:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117172

This can be ruled out in my opinion as the aircraft was not a total loss, and the location indicate they ended up in German controlled territory

I./J.G.27:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117138

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117140

These two can be ruled out in my opinion as the aircraft was not a total loss, and the location indicate they ended up in German controlled territory

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117139

The JG 27 book states that the pilot ended up as a POW, and this one can thus be ruled out

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117137

A possibility as the aircraft and pilot is simply listed as missing

III./J.G.51:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117133
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117130

Pilot made POW and KIA respectively, can be ruled out.

I./J.G.52:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117057

A possibility

I./J.G.53:
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117063
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117061
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117060

Can be ruled out

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=117064
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117062

Possible matches, but I guess Jochen has ruled these out using other sources

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=116977

A possible match - as he can have been rescued an later died from his injuries. What do we know about this one, Jochen?


III./J.G.53:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117134

Can be ruled out

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117135

This would then be the aircraft flown by the aforementioned Oblt. Müller

I./J.G.77:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117131

Can be ruled out, low damage in German controlled area

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117132

A possibility

I./L.G.2:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117058
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=117059

Both possible matches until further information have been added

These are the Bf 109's I have on this date - assuming that the crew of the rescue aircraft was right in their reporting the person picked up was a Bf 109 pilot...

Regards,
Andreas B