A 'what if' question RE: LW vs 8th AF

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by mars

You also repeately and consistently miss the point that 1) If Luftwaffe tried to repeated small faroce low level 10pm to 3am attacks, most possibly they would fail to find the airbase


You KNOW this, How?

2) if Luftwaffe tried to enter the UK air space in higher altitude, and only dive to low lever AFTER THEY LOCATE USSAF AIR BASES,

You KNOW this, How?

then they would suffered very high losses to RAF night air defense system without achieve anything 3) you miss the point that Luftwaffe did try night ground attack in UK by fighter bomber, it FAILED MISERABLY.

When, where, and what were the tactics?

And I also notice that now you switch back to the ground attack, and give up mixing into USSAF heavy bombers stream when Americans were returning to their base

I never 'left' the night intrusion attacks at low level as a 'what if'. Your attention span may have been deficient. What I posed as a possibility that needed to be repeated was the night attacks to disrupt the USAAF policy of re-fueling aircraft and leaving them (vulnerable) on hardstands.

What I suggested was feasible for any experienced IFR pilot and the LW had a lot of such pilots in their bomber forces.

What I posed as a possible effect was high potential gain for minimal losses compared to a daylight attack in conventional approach - namely a potential series of 'Polatava' results on 8th and 9th AF in the most concentrated target rich environment during WWII.

What I posed, if successful, would have forced USAAF to change its SOP for preliminary mission preparations and forced later take offs, forcing later returns - forcing a significant percentage of mission returns into night landings. If successful, the accident attrition rate for night landings in bad weather would have altered many target selections. If successful, vulnerabilty for good weather night returns to returning (and outbound RAF bomber forces) to LW Night Fighter attcks could have been more successful, simply by virtue of stretching RAF and USAAF night fighter resources.

Its all speculation, just as your extreme overconfidence that a.) LW pilots were inferior incompetants, and b.) that RAF night defenses were invulnerable. Good day.

[mars]

1) I knew this because that was beyond the WWII navigation technology
2) I knew this from the combact history of the night air war over UK
3) read chris goss's book "Luftwaffe Hit and Run Raiders: Nocturnal Fighter-Bomber Operations Over the Western Front, 1943-1945"

yes, after 1943 Luftwaffe ARE INFERIOR to allie airforces, and yes RAF night defense were invulnerable, at least to the Luftwaffe, and that was proved again and again from 1943 to 1945, what Luftwaffe achieved over UK in that period were nothing but isolated and occasional success, which were nothing but nuisance

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by mars

1) I knew this because that was beyond the WWII navigation technology
2) I knew this from the combact history of the night air war over UK
3) read chris goss's book "Luftwaffe Hit and Run Raiders: Nocturnal Fighter-Bomber Operations Over the Western Front, 1943-1945"

yes, after 1943 Luftwaffe ARE INFERIOR to allie airforces, and yes RAF night defense were invulnerable, at least to the Luftwaffe, and that was proved again and again from 1943 to 1945, what Luftwaffe achieved over UK in that period were nothing but isolated and occasional success, which were nothing but nuisance

Have you ever flown at night in areas with few lights? I have. Please share your experience in night flying.

Have you ever flown near a coast in a light of say a quarter moon? I have.

Have you ever flown dead reckoning after losing an RNAV/DME and depend entirely on needle/Ball and compass and watch and radio - I have.

Impossible - No. Experienced Pilots 'back in the day' after experiencing European weather and acquiring necessary nav skills could do what I have done far better than me and my not so impressive 565 hours as PIC.

You are seriously mis-informed regarding the phrase 'impossible'.

As to 'reading' about it to acquire such exquisite insight? - that is amusing. Is that the same as 'facts and only the facts - there are no other facts' perspective that you cherish? Having said that I am open to opsinion of those on Adolph Galland's or Gemaj Joseph Schmid's staffs which discuss this in detail - please point me to them..

As to 'Inferior' standards. What are your perspectives about the Colonials in 1776 or 1812. They weren't superior but they prevailed. Or Vietnamese. They weren't superior to the French or the US - but they prevailed.

Britons superior to Spain in 1588? I don't think so - but the results don't align with 'commonly held' views did they?

[mars]

Luftwaffe was inferior to USAAF and they were defeated by USAAF, Japanese Navy was inferior to US Navy and they were defeated by US Navy,Iraqi army was inferior to American army, and they were defeated by US army, so what is EXACTLY your point? And you told me, without help of modern navigation system, you could fly from France or Belgium to UK ALL THE WAY at a very low altitude so that you could not be detected by radar and still could pingpong you target? Sure, if you say so

[drgondog]

You don't read well, nor do you comprehend well.... such tendencies make for not very interesting discourse.

With such obstacles firmly in place it is clear that we are wasting too many cycles...

Suggestion - Play like you are a pilot based at say Abbevile in September 1943. Look at a map, knock yourself out.

If you chose to use Dover as your reference (But fly slightly east to bypass the cliffs) fly approximately 70 miles at whatever airspeed you chose to fly, course approximately 320. Fly this course until you see Calais (the LW side of the Channel). At this point, just suppose you fly at 5000 feet. You can spot Dover across the Cannel. Mark the course to pass east of Dover to ensure you are flying the straight line course you wish to attack Bassingbourn/Steeple Morden ~ 70 miles ?). Dive to the deck over French Coast. Mark your way point as Dover aligns 90degrees to your 320 heading and stay to 300 feet - increase airspeed to say 280 TAS for 15 minutes and search visually for signs of 322bg, 386 bg, 4Fg, 55fg then 355th fg and 91st bg. They arer all along that course in the final 5 minutes of the dash northwest.

If there is a partial moon, perhaps you get reflection from NMF aircraft that are ALL out in the open. See a few? adjust course slightly, arm your weapons, make one pass - two max and take a variable course to the east to confuse possible trailing aircraft trying to shoot you down. Barage ballons will be a hazard so - intelligence will assist in plotting the least dense path - pehaps you fly due north over the Channel to find a well defined Felixstowe on the river and then fly due west. Then you cross 381bg, 78th to 355th and two miles away Bassinbourn.

Wow - you have flown approximately 70 + miles over France and Channel, then 40 miles over the UK inbound to your specific target - with several optional high value treasure troves along the way, and then 40 miles outbound at high speed on the deck back to the Channel. Maybe you are unlucky and hit a ballon or get shot down by flak, but equal chance to spot and hit one out of six airfileds loaded with fuel heavy fighters and bombers.

Equal Wow - you used your compass, your eyes and a watch - pretty sophisticated stuff, I know, but nevertheless equal to the task.

Biggest Wow - only 110 miles approximately from richest target population in Europe.

And you think it is Impossible?

Weather 'minimums'? Stay home. Partial cloud cover and intermittant rain? send more ships -in 15 minute periods/alter course and approach.

Radar see you over Abbevile - then disappear? equally likely that the radar team thinks the aircraft landed - and questions whether or not to vector a nightfighter in that direction. Especially if planned and co-ordinated with a night raid on London.

please don't worry about responding - we are done - take what you want and leave the rest.

[mars]

Gee, so easy, bravo! I wonder why Luftwaffe could miss London in the night blitz, all effort of RAF and Luftwaffe for night time naviation were waste,since all they need was a map ! but one thing you are right, we are done, I have nothing to say to you

[Juha]

Hello Drgondog
I'm with Mars in this question. You might underestimate the radars in use in 43-44
see:
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chl/chl.htm

http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chel/chel.htm

Juha

[drgondog]

suprisingly that was clear at the beginning Mars!

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Drgondog
I'm with Mars in this question. You might underestimate the radars in use in 43-44
see:
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chl/chl.htm

http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chel/chel.htm

Juha

Juha - good to chat old friend. Actually I don't underestimate radar technolgy, I question the air defenses detection, reactiom, control and execution. In the second link you mentioned the ability to 'detect' 30 to 45 miles out for altitudes of 200 feet.

Ok - at 45 miles the intruder is detected over the French Coast - if it is an intruder. Say in 15 minutes at 280 mph TAS that 'intruder is over Bassingbourn. What happens in 15 minutes relative to a.) qualifying a threat, b.) qualifying heading/altitude/airspeed, c.) directing an intercept, d.) enabling interceptor to pick up the track and close, e.) pass the intruder to the night fighter for positive contact, f.) verify Friend or foe, e.) dive (and not crash) to get position to shoot down, e.) shoot down.

15 minutes or less from detection/question/decision/initiate intercept? Easy? Not with 1970's technology and air defense systems - doubt very much the 40's.

[Juha]

Now FC/ADGB was getting fairly good in catching low flying Fw 190A and Me 410 fighter bombers and fast bombers during 1943. Most of LW planes get through but at times losses were high enough to keep Germans worrying. During the night 8./9.11.43 2 Ju 88 Pathfinders and 11 Me 410As/V./KG 2 made a harassing attack on London, British night fighters shot down 3 Me 410As also at that night a Ju 88S /7./KG 6 was lost to unknown reason with the crew, possible one of the pathfinders. Bombs were dropped twice in Greater London area and at 6 places in Sussex, Essex and Kent.

From 357th FG history, Merle’s 1994 book, I recall one fighter bomber attack against their base, results were IIRC a few cannon shell holes in one hangar and some bomblets outside perimeter tracks. But I admit that it was years ago when I read the book.

Juha