Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

In July-August 1943 total Luftwaffe losses to all causes on the Eastern front are given as 2419, including 432 Fw 190s. This seems ridiculously inflated, but is another explanation possible? Could this be the total of all incidents of aircraft sustaining damage?

These loss figures are based on mentioned Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen and include not only total losses but also aircraft sent to industry for major repair.

Month Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 682 355 247 1284
Aug43 461 368 306 1135
Total: 1143 723 553 2419

[Maxim1]

Here is what I have for other units on Eastern front:

Night-fighters (IV./NJG 5; NJG 100; NJG 200; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 1; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 6):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 58 1 5 2 8
Aug43 54 1 12 9 22
Total: -- 2 17 11 30

Zerstoerer units (I. and 10.(N)/ZG 1; ZG 2):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 66 14 5 12 31
Aug43 7 0 0 0
Total: -- 14 5 12 31

Bomber units (III., IV. and 9.(Eis)/KG 1; KG 3; KG 4 (excepting I. and IV./KG 4); KG 27 (excepting IV./KG 27); I./KG 30; KG 51 (excepting I./KG 51); KG 53 (excepting IV. and 15./KG 53); KG 55 (excepting IV./KG 55); I./KG 100; Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 766 174 79 74 327
Aug43 713 97 100 107 304
Total: --- 271 179 181 631

Sturzkampf units (StG 1; StG 2; III./StG 3; StG 5; StG 77; 9./StG 151):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 448 115 38 66 219
Aug43 404 103 53 66 222
Total: --- 218 91 132 441

Ground-attack units (SchG 1; 4. and 8.(Pz)/SchG 2; Fuehrer der Pz.Jg.Staffeln):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 165 59 40 9 108
Aug43 114 48 13 21 82
Total: --- 107 53 30 190

Reconnaissance units (AGr 11; 1. and 2.(H)/12; AGr 13; 3.(H) and 4.(F)/14; AGr 21; AGr 22; AGr 23; AGr 31; AGr 32; 2. and 4.(H)/33; AGr 41; AGr 100; 4.(F)/121; 4. and 5.(F)/122; 1., 2. and 3.(F)/ObdL; Stab NAGr 1; 1./NAGr 2; NAGr 4; Stab NAGr 11; Stab NAGr 12; Nachtkette NAGr 15; 1., 2., 3. and 4.(F)/Nacht; 2./NAGr 16; 1.(F)/124; Fernaufklaerungskette Lappland; Stab NAGr 9; Wekusta 1):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 506 56 41 33 130
Aug43 458 61 44 43 148
Total: --- 117 85 76 278

Maritime units (3. Minensuchstaffel; Stab, 1. and 3./SAGr 125; SAGr 127):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 58 0 4 6 10
Aug43 60 1 5 12 18
Total: -- 1 9 18 28

Transport units (I./TG 1; TG 2 (excepting II./TG 2); TG 3; TG 4 (excepting IV./TG 4); Tr.Sta Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost; Tr.Sta I. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta IV. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta VIII. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta des Feldluftgau 25; Tr.Sta Luftflotte 6):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 496 58 11 2 71
Aug43 471 22 13 21 56
Total: --- 80 24 23 127

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Maxim1

Here is what I have for other units on Eastern front:

And below are Hotoon's monthly loss totals for the Eastern Front for May 1942 to December 1944 inclusive. Apologies for the length, but I hope you appreciate the information!

Maksim, I've compared your figures with Hooton's for the relevant months of 1943. The data is in the second table in this post. Your numbers are consistently higher. I think that is because Ted Hooton somehow found a method of refining the data from the Bewegunsmeldungen. I wonder how he did it.

Table 1:
Month Year EA Accident Total Ratio of EA to Accident
May 1942 229 227 456 1.01
June 1942 256 234 490 1.09
July 1942 317 262 579 1.21
August 1942 392 265 657 1.48
September 1942 346 208 554 1.66
October 1942 217 160 377 1.36
November 1942 204 186 390 1.10
December 1942 225 130 355 1.73
January 1943 264 111 375 2.38
February 1943 226 160 386 1.41
March 1943 250 220 470 1.14
April 1943 147 168 315 0.88
May 1943 298 222 520 1.34
June 1943 209 170 379 1.23
July 1943 554 283 837 1.96
August 1943 386 296 682 1.30
September 1943 307 205 512 1.50
October 1943 272 199 471 1.37
November 1943 179 142 321 1.26
December 1943 109 92 201 1.18
January 1944 235 216 451 1.09
February 1944 152 155 307 0.98
March 1944 197 228 425 0.86
April 1944 352 278 630 1.27
May 1944 208 267 475 0.78
June 1944 238 194 432 1.23
July 1944 562 418 980 1.34
August 1944 386 270 656 1.43
September 1944 209 121 330 1.73
October 1944 316 186 502 1.70
November 1944 79 108 187 0.73
December 1944 135 226 361 0.60


Table 2:
Month Year EA Accident Total M Total M bigger by
March 1943 250 220 470 606 136
April 1943 147 168 315 470 155
May 1943 298 222 520 618 98
June 1943 209 170 379 451 72
July 1943 554 283 837 1037 200
August 1943 386 296 682 829 147
September 1943 307 205 512 617 105
October 1943 272 199 471 555 84
November 1943 179 142 321 365 44
December 1943 109 92 201 255 54

[ArtieBob]

Part of the problem may be that Luftwaffe figures in different documents do not agree. But for what it is worth, there is Luftwaffe summary data for strength and losses for most of the war, with East figures separate from the rest (West, etc.) An RAF translation of "Gesamt Flugzeugverluste der Front- und Erganzungeinheiten" has quarterly data from 1940 to the end of 1944 with strength and losses for SEF, Bombers including Schlacht, and NJG. I don't have time to enter the entire table at this time, but here is the data for the quarter ending 31.12.43. SEF losses all-1954, East-335; SEF strength all-1561, East-385, Bomber losses all-1105, East-301; Bomber strength all-1604, East-241; NJG losses-323; NJG strength 611. Based on that data, my duty preference would be NJG. From sept 43 to Oct 1944 is a breakdown by month of losses as a result of air combat, bombed, strafed, Flak, etc. and non combat causes. There is another set of summary loss data, I can't put my hands on, but it give a much more detailed breakdown of loss data for 1944 and the first months of 1945. I did an analysis of this and posted some of the results on TOCH several years ago. IIRC, on a per mission basis, loss rates in the West were several times higher than those in the East, which surprised me when I first did the math. That the difference was so marked, even late in the war when I would have thought the USSR was pretty much on a par with the Luftwaffe was an eye opener for me.
Best Regards,
Artie Bob

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by ArtieBob

Part of the problem may be that Luftwaffe figures in different documents do not agree. But for what it is worth, there is Luftwaffe summary data for strength and losses for most of the war, with East figures separate from the rest (West, etc.) An RAF translation of "Gesamt Flugzeugverluste der Front- und Erganzungeinheiten" has quarterly data from 1940 to the end of 1944 with strength and losses for SEF, Bombers including Schlacht, and NJG. I don't have time to enter the entire table at this time, but here is the data for the quarter ending 31.12.43. SEF losses all-1954, East-335; SEF strength all-1561, East-385, Bomber losses all-1105, East-301; Bomber strength all-1604, East-241; NJG losses-323; NJG strength 611. Based on that data, my duty preference would be NJG. From sept 43 to Oct 1944 is a breakdown by month of losses as a result of air combat, bombed, strafed, Flak, etc. and non combat causes. There is another set of summary loss data, I can't put my hands on, but it give a much more detailed breakdown of loss data for 1944 and the first months of 1945. I did an analysis of this and posted some of the results on TOCH several years ago. IIRC, on a per mission basis, loss rates in the West were several times higher than those in the East, which surprised me when I first did the math. That the difference was so marked, even late in the war when I would have thought the USSR was pretty much on a par with the Luftwaffe was an eye opener for me.
Best Regards,
Artie Bob

Artie Bob, thank you very much for your input and for the tantalizing glimpse of something akin to the holy grail of loss totals! Would it be possible for you to post that information on the forum at some point in the future, or name the archival document wherein it is contained? I've done a quick search of your TOCH postings, but cannot seem to find those you are referring to. Could you possibly have posted that information on a different forum?

The totals you give add up to 636 SEF and bomber losses in the East in the final quarter of 1943. Hooton's sum for all losses for this period is 993, so it looks like these figures are reasonably similar.

The data in different sources certainly does not match very well, see as an illustration the comparison of monthly losses from January to October 1943 inclusive in Hooton's and Murray's books below:

Month Year Hooton combat H total Murray losses
January 1943 br 264 br 375 br 482
February 1943 br 226 br 386 br 318
March 1943 br 250 br 470 br 314
April 1943 br 147 br 315 br 238
May 1943 br 298 br 520 br 331
June 1943 br 209 br 379 br 249
July 1943 br 554 br 837 br 558
August 1943 br 386 br 682 br 472
September 1943 br 307 br 512 br 338
October 1943 br 272 br 471 br 279
November 1943 br 179 br 321 br 180

Paul Thompson

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

... name the archival document wherein it is contained?

Paul Thompson

I can't say for certain but this looks like the kind of thing you find in National Archives files AIR20/7700 – /7712, which contain RAF translations of various Luftwaffe documents and statistics.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I can't say for certain but this looks like the kind of thing you find in National Archives files AIR20/7700 – /7712, which contain RAF translations of various Luftwaffe documents and statistics.

Nick, thank you for the lead. Is there also a possibility that translations of this kind can be found at IWM Duxford or the AHB? If so, is there any way that a private individual can ask to gain access to those archives? I have next to no research experience myself, having only ever looked at some AIR files on the Desert war in the National Archives. This makes me wonder whether one has to be a researcher of some repute to get into either Duxford or the Air Historical Branch.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Nick, thank you for the lead. Is there also a possibility that translations of this kind can be found at IWM Duxford or the AHB? If so, is there any way that a private individual can ask to gain access to those archives? I have next to no research experience myself, having only ever looked at some AIR files on the Desert war in the National Archives. This makes me wonder whether one has to be a researcher of some repute to get into either Duxford or the Air Historical Branch.

The IWM has a website, so you could contact them and ask about Duxford. I've only ever written to the AHB, so I can't answer your question. I don't quite see why either would be preferable to visiting the Archives at Kew (unless you live near Duxford). Kew has the advantage of being purpose-built for researchers.

[Nick Beale]

IWM had some AHB 6 microfilms which I saw about 20 years ago at the Museum in Lambeth. Why not contact them and inquire what they have now?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I have been working on these issues for several years, and think you are in some cases in this thread overcomplicating, and in others oversimplifying.

With regards to the 'big numbers' - total losses - these are available for statistical use from a couple of sources.

I will see if I can provide some detailed information over the weekend.

Regards,
Andreas B