Last fight of Ltn. Kurt Thaler (JG54) and dogfights on 23.Nov.44

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello friends,

whether the exact time of loss of Kurt Thaler (II./JG54) on 23.Nov.44 is known?

His last claim was Il-2 on 08:16 in Qu.28175 (Irben strait, western part of Riga Gulf). Also Ltn. Gerhard Thyben claimed one Il-2 on 08:20 nearby (Qu.28183).

Both claims good corresponds to Soviet data. 2 Il-2 (35.ShAP 9.ShAD VVS KBF) were really shot down in air combat in that area soon after 08:10 (10:10 msc) after strike against German ships.

From Soviet side, one FW190 was claimed by E.M.Maralin and B.D.Frenkel (Il-2 air gunners) on 08:10 (10:10 msc) and one FW190 on 08:20 (10:20 msc) by escort fighter - St.Lt. Poskoryakov (Yak-1 from 12.IAP).

Maybe Thaler was downed in that dogfight, but... The dogfight mentioned in war diaries of several German ships, and fall of 2 Il-2 is registered but nothing about 3rd downed a/c. Maybe Thaler's FW190 was damaged only and crashed a bit later and outside, but maybe the event in question was more later in his 2nd mission that day, for example.
Soviet fighters made many other claims during the day.

Also, in well-known database of JG54 losses two losses listed on 23.Nov.: Kurt Thaler with unknown fate of his FW190, and FW190 (100% loss) without info about pilot. Is it the different losses or the same loss?
According to German AOK16 documents, the whole LF1 lost one fighter on 23.Nov.44.

It seems 8 or more FW190s from 3./JG51 (Luftflotte 6) also took part in combat off Moonsund Islands on 23.Nov.44 as air cover of heavy cruiser "Adm.Scheer". Whether I./JG51 claims and losses on 23.Nov.44 is known?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

OK, maybe shorter question:

Whether losses for 18-23.Nov.44 of following units are known?
I./JG54
II./JG54
I./JG51
III./SG3
NAG5
23.Nov.44 is especially interesting.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Laurent Rizzotti]

From the summary of Luftwaffe losses:

Loss date:Unit:No of Aircraft:LostCategory:Report date:18/11/1944I./J.G.541YDestroyed on the ground by enemy bombs25/11/194418/11/1944I./J.G.544NDamaged on the ground by enemy bombs25/11/194418/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces07/12/194418/11/1944II./J.G.541YDestroyed without enemy action on operational flight02/12/194418/11/1944III./S.G.31NDamaged without enemy action on operational flight27/11/194419/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged without enemy action on operational flight02/12/194419/11/1944I./J.G.542NDamaged without enemy action on non-operational flight07/12/194419/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces08/12/194419/11/1944III./S.G.31YDestroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight27/11/194419/11/1944III./S.G.31NDamaged without enemy action on operational flight27/11/194419/11/1944III./S.G.31NDamaged without enemy action on operational flight29/11/194422/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged without enemy action on non-operational flight07/12/194422/11/1944II./J.G.541YDestroyed without enemy action on operational flight02/12/194422/11/1944III./S.G.31YMissing Due to enemy action04/12/194423/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged without enemy action on non-operational flight07/12/194423/11/1944I./J.G.541NDamaged without enemy action on non-operational flight08/12/1944

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, Laurent

Thank you.
Thanks to your post some months ago I use this valuable source.

But time and locations of that losses are absent in the table. It is necessary to divide losses between Sworbe (Ösel) and Kurland (and for I./JG51 - between East Prussia and waters west of Sworbe).

Maybe, for example, time of the loss of Ltn. Gerhard Thyben known from NVM or from other sources?

Best regards,
Andrey