Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

... how did you link the ADI(K) report and the AIR40 file? Is that your own previous experience of reading the file, or a better method of searching?

Well sheer genius obviously played a part, but I think (from memory) that once the ADI(K)s were finally declassified in the UK I checked out the AIR 40 paper index at the (then) PRO. Online, it's easy enough to find e.g. via a search in AIR40 using the keyword "prisoner." Once you get a hit, use the "browse from here" button. With AIR40/2423 the details given are that the file covers July–August 1945 and has the "scope and content: 343-381." From that you can infer that it contains No. 1945/351.

BTW, as far as I know there is no English translation of Stab KG 77's diary apart from the one I made of the 1944 entries, so I never felt I'd wasted my time on it. I needed it for a book I was co-writing and I got a result I could trust (or at least know the many limitations of).

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Well sheer genius obviously played a part, but I think (from memory) that once the ADI(K)s were finally declassified in the UK I checked out the AIR 40 paper index at the (then) PRO. Online, it's easy enough to find e.g. via a search in AIR40 using the keyword "prisoner." Once you get a hit, use the "browse from here" button. With AIR40/2423 the details given are that the file covers July–August 1945 and has the "scope and content: 343-381." From that you can infer that it contains No. 1945/351.

BTW, as far as I know there is no English translation of Stab KG 77's diary apart from the one I made of the 1944 entries, so I never felt I'd wasted my time on it. I needed it for a book I was co-writing and I got a result I could trust (or at least know the many limitations of).

Nick, thank you for describing the logic of the search. Among the interrogation reports, AIR 40/2422 to AIR 40/2426 cover the immediate post-war period and seem to be candidates for possible sources of loss data. Does the paper index list the titles of the reports contained in the files, unlike the online catalogue?

Now I understand the point about the war diary!

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Didn't receive a PM from you I'm afraid.

All the best

Andreas

I must apologise to you and Andreas Brekken, I thought you were one and the same person. The different user names didn't register!

Here's all the loss data extracted from the ADI(K) report mentioned above:
br All 44 br Dec 44 br Jan 45 br Feb 45
Day Fighters br 2291 br 315 br 152 br 30
Night Fighters br 664 br 94 br 47 br 47
Attacks on Airfields br 2110 br 142 br 87 br no data
Western Front Day br 2996 br 675 br 427 br 168
Western Front Night br 1074 br 160 br 50 br 21
Luftflotte 4 br 1055 br 82 br 103 br 62
Luftflotte 6 br 889 br 26 br 229 br 376
Luftflotte 1 br 460 br 23 br 4 br 12
Norway br 68 br 4 br 12 br 29
Finland br 153 br 5 br 0 br 0
Denmark br 1 br 5 br 1 br 0
Italy br 966 br 7 br 3 br 5
Total br 12727 br 1538 br 1115 br no data
Without ground attacks br 10617 br 1396 br 1028 br 750
Total East br 2557 br 136 br 336 br 450
Total West br 8060 br 1260 br 692 br 300

Paul Thompson

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Does the paper index list the titles of the reports contained in the files, unlike the online catalogue?

I must apologise to you and Andreas Brekken, I thought you were one and the same person.

Paul Thompson

1) No, it doesn't but it wouldn't take that long to flip through those files you mention to see what the report titles are and get copies of the ones you want. You could do it in less than a day, I'd think.

2) We definitely aren't.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

1) No, it doesn't but it wouldn't take that long to flip through those files you mention to see what the report titles are and get copies of the ones you want. You could do it in less than a day, I'd think.

2) We definitely aren't.

1) Now it's all clear. One of us will do that very soon, since it's quite easy to view documents in Kew, as you've said.

2) Sorry, I was referring to AndreasB and Andreas Brekken. Hopefully that ends the confusion!

Below is a summation of all Luftwaffe losses through March 1945, which I think is essentially identical to the one was put up on this forum by Andreas Brekken some years ago.

Aircraft Losses and Damage
Total for All types from September 1939 to March 1945
November and December 1941 data missing

Missing over German territory
15015
Destroyed by Flak over German territory (German-controlled territory?)
2598
Damaged by Flak and requiring replacement
991
Destroyed by Fighters
12111
Damaged by Fighters and requiring replacement
2191
Destroyed by Ground fire
229
Damaged by Ground fire
80
Destroyed by Bombs
4216
Damaged by Bombs
734

Total losses to enemy action
34169
Aircraft damaged by enemy action requiring replacement
3996
Total losses without enemy action
21228
Aircraft damaged without enemy action requiring replacement
11411

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

Unfortunately, there is no loss information in the ADI(K)s apart from that included in Book 21. At Kew, the information, as Nick indicated, is in AIR 40/2423, ADI(K) 351 GAF Operations, Claims and Losses, 1944 - February 1945 also 352 Establishment, Strength, Serviceability and Losses of GAF Flying Units, 1938 to December 1944 and finally 366 GAF Aircrew and Aircraft Losses, September 1939 - January 1945.

The only other item of interest, although not containing any loss information is in AIR 20/7706, AHB translation VII/107 Luftwaffe Strength and Serviceability Tables August 1938 - April 1945.

Does anyone have any ideas as to where else to look?

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

a summation of all Luftwaffe losses ... which I think is essentially identical to the one was put up on this forum by Andreas Brekken some years ago.

Not quite, the information identical to Andreas Brekken's comes from a slightly different source, reproduced below:

A.D.I.(K) Report No.366/1945
GAF Aircrew and Aircraft Losses to 10.1.45
Period 1.9.39 to 10.1.45
Operational
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
40613 (1774)
Aircraft Damaged
20492 (820)
Non-Operational
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
10457 (1043)
Aircraft Damaged
15171 (1614)
Schools and Other Stations
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
11442 (5659)*
Aircraft Damaged
9931 (5537)*
The figures given in brackets ( ) show the number of school and training aircraft and miscellaneous non-operational types included in the totals
The figures given in brackets ( )* show the numbers of operational types included in the total losses at schools and other stations

For ease of reference, http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...33&postcount=2 is Andreas Brekken's post from the 21st September 2009.

Are there any ideas as to other sources which may be useful?

Paul Thompson