Thinking of the Jagdwaffe (West) circa January, 1944

[Oberst]

Ok usually not just one Allied fighter, many allied fighter. And to 'bail' without combat damage was NOT for the most part being afraid, Combat ready German Pilots were few, German planes were many.. save your arse and fight another day. The 'ONLY' thing Luftwaffe pilots were afraid of was pulling their ripcords EARLY.

There were many cases of 9th (15th? Can't remember off-hand) AF B-24 that the crew bailed when a single 109 pulled onto thier six o'clock too.

Gruppen leaders were starting to ignore stupid/pointless orders from up high, and were concerned about the survival of there men. It does not mean they were cowards, not at all.

Anyways, what changed for 1944 heres a couple of points:

~ conversion of Fw190 units such as Jagdgeschwader 300 to the Sturmbock role. For example, on 7 July 1944 Eighth Air Force bombers belonging to the 492nd Bomb Group were intercepted unescorted. The entire squadron of 12 B-24s were shot down. The USAAF 2nd Air Division lost 28 Liberators that day, the majority to a Sturmbock attack

~ Ignoring Göring's lunitic fringe

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by Oberst

Gruppen leaders were starting to ignore stupid/pointless orders from up high, and were concerned about the survival of their men.

~ Ignoring Göring's lunatic fringe

Yes. Thank you, Oberst.

Beyond the famous, "You will shoot down a bomber on every mission or die trying," order, are there other examples of stupid/pointless orders that would be illustrative?

Bronc

[Broncazonk]

Question: I've seen more than a dozen examples in gun camera film (1945) of outboard 20mm or 30mm ammuntion boxes detonating violently on FW-190 A-8's when under fire from behind from .50-cal. The wing shears off in a massive explosion when that happens.

If a pilot (or unit leader) wanted to delete those outboard cannons on the FW-190 to remove that specific danger AND improve the flight performance of the aircraft, did they have the authority? Would they have gotten grief from higher authority for wanting to do that?

I've read that Pips Priller and other Experten did exactly that--remove the outboard cannons.

Bronc

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Oberst

Ok usually not just one Allied fighter, many allied fighter. And to 'bail' without combat damage was NOT for the most part being afraid, Combat ready German Pilots were few, German planes were many.. save your arse and fight another day. The 'ONLY' thing Luftwaffe pilots were afraid of was pulling their ripcords EARLY.

Ditto American crews. That being said group and squadron leaders in 8th FC had a standard lecture if anyone was Suspected of shooting a LW pilot in a chute. One of my father's was "Remember there are a lot of bomber crews in chutes before you even Consider shooting at the other guy". unarmed guys in chutes were shot at occasionally by both sides - as well as murdered after surrender.

There were many cases of 9th (15th? Can't remember off-hand) AF B-24 that the crew bailed when a single 109 pulled onto thier six o'clock too.

Sources?



Anyways, what changed for 1944 heres a couple of points:

~ conversion of Fw190 units such as Jagdgeschwader 300 to the Sturmbock role. For example, on 7 July 1944 Eighth Air Force bombers belonging to the 492nd Bomb Group were intercepted unescorted. The entire squadron of 12 B-24s were shot down. The USAAF 2nd Air Division lost 28 Liberators that day, the majority to a Sturmbock attack.

True - at great cost... and bigger successes on September 27 near Eisenach and November 26 at Misburg.. all at even greater cost to themselves

~ Ignoring Göring's lunitic fringe

January 1944 was probably not as great a psyhological problem as May 1944 when the full shock of the P-51 had made the practice of staging for bomber attack out of range of escorts very difficult.

Only one Group of P-51s was operational in January 1944. Only five at the end of April - but they were credited with more LW fighters than all the ETO P-38s and P-47s combined by early June.