Opinions please (impact Allied fighter bombers on D-day)

[Franek Grabowski]

Bill
I do not trust Galland simply because in my opinion he started to have some periods of his career blancoed. Various events, like visit on Sicily, development of Me 262, his relations with Goering are shown in completely different perspective by another sources.
I have no answer on actual impact of Allied straffing, but certainly I would not limit my knowledge to Galland or pilots' claims.
Graham
ORBs of Polish 2 TAF Mustang Squadrons show without doubt that they flew Ramrods (ie. dive bombings) on daily or almost daily basis during the Normandy Campaign. Due to superior range they flew a little bit farther than Spits or Tiffies. I suppose this was common to all 2 TAF Mustangs, though I cannot say for Americans.
In regard of Rommel's conflict with other commanders, Zetterling, based on German documents, suggests that Allied AFs did not cause any substantial losses or delays to the German army but Allied air superiority was a good excuse for incompetent German commanders. It is also his suggestion, that the command was right and if followed Rommel's sugestions, the army would have been destroyed by intense naval and aerial bombings on D-Day.
Olve
I do not think Luftwaffe achieved any goals at Dieppe, and I would hardly call this a Luftwaffe victory.
Cheers

[drgondog]

Franek - interesting that the Polish pilots would use 'Ramrod' differently from Americans.. The USAAF Fighter Command basically had three terms to describe the type mission they flew -
1. Ramrod - a mission escorting bombers along a planned path and duration.. the mission could evolve into a Sweep or Fighter Sweep after breaking escort duties and shoot up targets on the deck on the way home. Brits used Rodeo did they not?

2. Sweep - as in above but also a planned activity w/o engaging in bomber escort duty.. The variations included Fighter Bomber Sweep which the 8th AF Fighter Command flew frequently between June and August and carried bombs instead of wing tanks... or simply fly a planned route after dropping tanks and strafe. Variations here were 'Chatanooga' for specifically going after trains and 'Jackpot' for going after airfields.
Believe British term = Rhubarb

3. Area Patrol - the Fighter mission was to 'patrol a specific area, either high altitude along the bomber track but not really moving with the bomber stream (rare) or a low level mission covering a specific area to look for airfields, trains, troops, etc.

It was the latter two missions that were contributions to overall force projection by the 8th AF behind (but not very far) the actual Battle Line - which was the domain of TAC air.

I know the American derivative for Ramrod spun from Cattle drives in the American West in which the cowboys were 'escorting' the cows along the trail.. what was the Polish reference?

Regards,

Bill

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Ramrod was a RAF term and means a bombing raid intended to destroy the target (while a Circus was a bombing raid whose main objective was to drew German fighters into battle with the escort).
Ramrod may apply to any raid, from 8th Air Force heavy bombers escorted by Mustangs (USAAF case above) to fighter-bombers targetting bridges, stations and dumps (Polish case above).

As said before, the main effect of Allied fighter-bombers was not against tanks, but against soft-skinned vehicles. Psychological impact and severing supply lines, or at least slowing them a lot, certainly did more damage than direct rocket hit.

The impact of Typhoons and other Jabos can be measured to what happens when they targetted Allied units in error, or what suffered civilians in bombed/strafed areas. Both suffered heavy losses, and were not the main targets...

Another impact of the tactical superiority of Allied airforces was the Allied ability to have artillery spotters in the air with low losses. Artillery remained the main weapon in all WWII ground campains. Even in Falaise pocket, guns did more damage than AC.

[drgondog]

Laurent - what is your source for the 'derivative' of Ramrod as an English versus American slang word? I'm curious as the USAAF terminology in every microfilm history I have researched (40,000+ pages and 50 reels of microfilm) have Ramrod as singularly related to Fighter Group 'slang' for Bomber Escort - whether by Spitfire (4th/31st), Thunderbolt, Lightning or Mustang.

Circus as "large bomber escort mission" seems unique to 4th FG perhaps implying that Circus was an RAF derivative. Ditto for Rhubarb as slang for low level fighter sweep. I found zero references to either Circus or Rhubarb in the non 4th FG histories.

All the other Group histories I have read in the 8th AF used only Ramrod, Fighter Sweep and Area/Withdrawal/Penetration Support or Patrol as the prime descriptors of every mission

So how did the RAF derivative for Ramrod disconnect from Fighter Escort of a bomber mission to solely a bomber mission (presumably with no escort?).. and why/when did RAF extract such quaint American slang for a Texas Cattle Drive and apply it to their own bomber 'terminology'?

Please don't take this as confrontational as I really am curious

Regards,

Bill

[Franek Grabowski]

Bill
I cannot say anything about origin of those names. For me they were ever since. It is also a little bit lenghty subject. Nonetheless, to keep it short, such code names appeared in 1941, so no US link is possible.
Circus (ex-Sphere) was an operation, where main objective was to destroy enemy aircraft. Several Squadrons involved usually including bomber and fighter ones. Fighter Squadrons flew Sweeps, Forward & Rear Supports, High Covers, Escort Covers, Close Covers, Diversions, etc.
Ramrod was an operation where the objective was to hit a ground target, so it could have looked like Circus but also like an Armed Recce.
Roadstead was an attack against naval targets.
Rodeo (ex-Sweep) was a fighter sweep not linked to any other objectives.
Rhubarb (ex-Mosquito) was a straffing of targets of opportunity by small formations in a bad weather.
Low Free Ramrod was the same as above but with fighter escort.
Etc., etc.