Looking for abstracts to von Rohden collection at NARS in the 1960's

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear muggs ro,

Thanks for giving it a go. I'm glad that you were able to confirm that it wasn't just me that had trouble with this one. Now, my take on it was that Galland was taking the 4. Staffel of IV./JG 54 and II./JG 7 to start out with for his new unit. Your interpretation may be closer to the truth.

What's the difference between 4. Staffel and IV./JG 54? If there isn't any difference, then why are they mentioned separately? Luftwaffe organization and operations are not my strong points.

Anyone else want to give it a try?

Regards,
Richard

[edNorth]

Originally Posted by Richard T. Eger

What's the difference between 4. Staffel and IV./JG 54? If there isn't any difference, then why are they mentioned separately? Luftwaffe organization and operations are not my strong points.

4. Staffeln was but one Staffeln of II/JG 7, but IV./JG 54 is whole 4th Group (that normally included 10., 11, and 12th Staffeln):
so this does not seem total of 4 Staffeln transformed into II/JG 7 - or was it (this designation) 4./JG 7 not used and the (all three) Staffeln of IV/JG 54 forming just 5th and 6th Staffeln/JG 7?

I can not elaborate further as I do not know exact histories of IV/JG 54 or II/JG 7 (or how this really became organized).

-Ed

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

Hi All,
in plain english it menas that IV./JG 54 (a four squadron gruppe) will be redesignated as II./JG 7 (a three squadron gruppe). The squadron that remains is to be completedly subordinated to Galland for creation of a squadron under his leadership that mirrors those Me 262 staffeln of JG 7.

Regards,
Norbert

[edNorth]

Seems IV./JG 54 was not disbanded, rather becoming IV./JG 26 later in February 45.
But yes, it was a four Staffeln Gruppe... this site helps yet again.
http://www.ww2.dk/
http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg54.htm
(so IV./JG 54 this perhaps was only drained of suitable trainees)

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear Ed and Norbert,

Thanks for your input. I've also contacted Robert Forsyth, author of JV 44, independently. One of the hinge words here is "geschlossen", a verb describing Galland's status. At this point, Galland was without portfolio or, even worse, possibly under indictment. The date of the document, as I mentioned, is 10.2.45, so I'm not exactly sure of his status at the time. The use of the word may also have been done in distain or disgust. It is hard to say.

I've attempted to reconstruct the statement to get a clearer meaning and context flow:

"1.) By order to organize IV./JG 54 into an Me 262 - Jagdgruppe (II./JG 7), 4. Staffel is released to Gen.Lt. Galland, currently without standing, to organize and establish a Jagdstaffel of Me 262's under his leadership to provide as part of JG 7."

Comments?

Regards,
Richard

[Nick Beale]

Die durch Umgliederung der IV./JG 54 in eine Me 262 - Jagdgruppe (II./JG 7) freiwerdende 4. Staffel ist geschlossen Gen.Lt. Galland zur Aufstellung einer unter seiner Führung stehenden und dem JG 7 anzugleidernen Jagdstaffel Me 262 zur Verfügung zu stellen.

"The 4. [Staffel] — freed up by the conversion of IV. [Gruppe]/JG 54 into an Me 262 Jagdgruppe (II./JG 7) — is placed, as a complete unit, at the disposal of Gen.Lt. Galland for the establishment of an Me 262 Jagdstaffel under his leadership and attached to JG 7."

I think there's an ambiguity in that "4. Staffel" doesn't mean 4./JG 54 (part of the I. Gruppe) here but rather "the fourth Staffel of the IV. Gruppe" (i.e. 16./JG 54).

The reason for that is that JG 54's Gruppen had four Staffeln each while JG 7 was set up with only three per Gruppe but with gaps in the numbering to allow for a fourth. So the JG 7 structure was:

I. Gruppe: 1., 2. and 3./JG 7
II. Gruppe: 5., 6. and 7./JG 7
III. Gruppe: 9., 10. and 11./JG 7

So Galland was to get the Staffel that was surplus in the reorganisation. As to "geschlossen" in this context, it can mean "united" or "in a body" and I take that to mean here that Galland will get all the Staffel's elements: flying, technical, signals, admin. etc. You'll often see in other reorganisations that the pieces were split up and assigned to various units.

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

Hi All,
in this context geschlossen means "as a whole". By the way German is my native tougue, so I'm not using those awful on line translators. Additionally I think the word "anzugleidernen" may not be spelled correctly could it be "anzugliedernen"?

You are correct Nick regarding the 4. Staffel explanation.

Regards,
Norbert

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear Nick and Norbert,

Thanks for your inputs. Norbert, you did catch me in a typo. The correct word is anzugliedernden. What does this mean and how does it affect the translation?:

"1.) Die durch Umgliederung der IV./JG 54 in eine Me 262 - Jagdgruppe (II./JG 7) freiwerdende 4. Staffel ist geschlossen Gen.Lt. Galland zur Aufstellung einer unter seiner Führung stehenden und dem JG 7 anzugliedernen Jagdstaffel Me 262 zur Verfügung zu stellen."

Robert Forsyth had taken the word geschlossen and interpreted it as follows:

"The use of the verb 'geschlossen' is more interesting, unusual and somewhat extreme! It infers that Galland was 'locked away', 'captive' - which, of course, effectively at that time he was. See also pg 105 of JV 44."

Thus, I was looking for a kinder treatment, but in this vein. It seems to be describing Galland, not the unit he was to set up. But then, the German language puts descriptors in the oddest places, so your interpretation Norbert of "as a whole" might be correct, but would need to be integrated elsewhere in an acceptable translation into English. What a devil of a statement to translate properly!!!

Regards,
Richard

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Richard T. Eger

Robert Forsyth had taken the word geschlossen and interpreted it as follows:

"The use of the verb 'geschlossen' is more interesting, unusual and somewhat extreme! It infers that Galland was 'locked away', 'captive' - which, of course, effectively at that time he was. See also pg 105 of JV 44."

Thus, I was looking for a kinder treatment, but in this vein. It seems to be describing Galland, not the unit he was to set up. But then, the German language puts descriptors in the oddest places, so your interpretation Norbert of "as a whole" might be correct, but would need to be integrated elsewhere in an acceptable translation into English. What a devil of a statement to translate properly!!!

Regards,
Richard

Well Norbert knows what he's talking about, being German (unlike you, me and Robert). In this sentence "geschlossen" is definitely not used an adjective in relation to Galland. If it was it would have a case ending, e.g. "die Staffel ... ist von dem geschlossenen Gen.Lt. Galland ... zur Verfügung zu stellen."

In this sentence it appears in its root form and is therefore an adverb, modifying the verb ("stellen").

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

Hi Richard and Nick,
thanks for the kudos. With the correction of "anzugliedern" it implies that the unit is to be attached to the organisational structure of JG 7.

It could read as follows:

Through the reorganisation of IV./JG 54 into a Me 262 fighter group (II./JG 7) the vacated 4th squadron is to be made available in its entirety under the leadership of GenLt. Galland for the formation of a fighter squadron that is attached operationally to JG 7.

I hate those "wurm" sentences that the military used in those days!

Regards,
Norbert