3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!

[ouidjat]

This photo: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7934 , offered in auction few days ago, has been resolved and rightly captioned after comparing the writings on back and Prien’s loss list.
Since it has been taken before the said accident (indeed) and since the man in background (just behind the right wheel) appears to be chest naked the photo has been shot most probably in September - at the beginning of – in a bright sunny day, and in Juliusburg.
Not in October – plane being lost – and not in Oedheim as it is wrongly described in Prien’s Teil 2, page 452.

Rote 5 or Yellow(Braune) 5?. Again, since the number’s colour is darker than the octane triangle background, Prien wrote it’s Red 5 adding that it doesn’t respect the “actual” rules since the number is black outlined instead of white!!! Well well well.
1- As quoted above the picture’s back writings are talking about 3. Staffel.
2- During the same bright sunny period this other plane http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=2935 as been shot in Juliusburg and is a true Red 5, number being white outlined, wearing 2.Staffel in white on fin and wearing “civilian stencils” (address and so on …) on fuselage.
You are free to think there was TWO Red 5 at the same time in the same place if you want or, better that one was lost and they repainted another Red … but this is doubtful.
3- Last, cherry on the cake, WNr.1078 http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=2939 – the following in the batch – was in 3./JG 77 too, at the beginning of September.

So, it’s not Red 5.

Now: Yellow or Brown?
We have very few exemple of 3./JG 77 machines during this time period. This present “5” (two pictures) The “8” displayed on same JFV Teil 2, page 452 (same story OK?? Not Rote 8) and this one: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4527
Still in Juliusburg by bright sunny day?? 
Peanuts.
Ah, yes a true but later “Braune 13”: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4978
I suppose the colour was indicated in RAF report, wasn’t it?

All these machines have a dark tone for the number while the octane triangle is clearer, especially for “5”.
Let’s say Dark yellow, orange, Braune … as you wish. But not Red.

It was my Little Brown Job chronicle to start 2014!!!

Cheers, Franck.

[Larry Hickey]

Franck,

This a/c is one of our EoE Color profiles being worked on right now representing 3./JG77 during 09.39 and the Polish Campaign. We've studied this a/c closely, and are certain that this is a 3./JG77 a/c and NOT 2./JG77. The latter unit used white outlines around their a/c numbers, as you've pointed out. I've concluded that the numbers on 3./JG77 aircraft from this period were either a dark yellowish-orange, or brown, as you've speculated. They aren't the standard yellow for sure.

We believe that this a/c was lost on 28 Sept 1939:

According to the EoE Luft Loss DB: 28 September 1939: "3./JG77 Messerschmitt Bf109E-3. Collided with a balloon and crashed near Merseburg. (FF) Lt Wolfgang Gadow killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (NOT PC)
After the Polish campaign, I./JG77 transferred to Oedheim on this date under Hptmn Johannes Janke."

I've proposed an update to this entry adding "Brown 5" and W.Nr.1077 to this entry based upon the photo caption.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ouidjat]

100% agree with you Larry.
I wrote this thinking about your EoE Project and being (a little bit) upset by a "Rote 5" I received recently.
I thought it was necessary to put the things at their right place....

And, as I wrote upper there is not a lot of 3./JG 77 machines being pictured; BUT there is plenty of 2./JG 77 with their white outlined red numbers, full rows on parking and individuals as well.

Best Wishes Larry.

Regards, Franck.

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Franck,

I feel I have to apologize that 22 years ago, when JG 77 Vol 1 was published, I was mistaken to believe that this a/c belonged to 2./JG 77 - the owner of the photo, who let me copy it, belonged to that Staffel - and that it was taken after the return of I./JG 77 from Poland as the placement in his album suggested, and that with my erroneous caption I have misled a whole generation of trustful Luftwaffe historians.

With what we konw now there is no doubt that it was a 3rd Staffel a/c and it seems certain that it was the a/c with which Lt. Gadow crashed to his death.

But you see - we, or at least me for that, are always trying to learn and if one thing is certain, then that is that we'll never know everything but much rather will make mistakes as long as we study. By now I know of many more in all of my books. The only way to avoid this is to keep everything for yourself and not to publish anything until you know it all - which will never be.

Never mind

Jochen Prien

[ouidjat]

Dear Dr. Prien, dear Jochen,

You don't have to apologise for a job which has been published times ago.
You did it with what you got; I'm perfectly aware of that situation.

You did a lot and still are doing a lot thanks for us, so please, do continue.
As you said if one stays waiting for the last minute correction, better doing nothing. I know that, we know that.

If you did feel hurt because of my comments, please forgive me.

It's just a signal - and an explanation - for those who aren't awake enough and still are spraying around wrong data as "definitive" truth ...
Let's say a blink ... or an LBJ like use to say bird watchers. And LBJ are the most difficult birds to name.

All the best for 2014 Jochen.

Tschüss, Franck.

[Falcon]

Originally Posted by Jochen Prien

The only way to avoid this is to keep everything for yourself and not to publish anything until you know it all - which will never be.

Or publish it on the digital way and keep it up to date. ;-) Ebooks?

[ChrisS]

E-books are the way forward! In that way new material can be added and links to other e-books and electronic resources made.

[ChrisS]

Dear Dr Jochen

It seems the debate over the use of brown as a colour for Jagdwaffe numbers has reared up again. Over on LEMB a topic has reached 93 posts in a very short space of time with the proponents of either side entrenching with the speed of a WW1 sap. Gerhard has spoken of documents with proof which should be enough for most individuals however may I ask do you have an opinion on the topic? I believe you may hold the key to finalise the issue for most other then perhaps the most obstinate of individuals :-)

Best regards

Chris

[John Vasco]

Not amused by this post, Chris, since I see it as a direct criticism of me in daring to ask Gerhard Stemmer for proof of his assertions.

Grow up, and understand proper research, will you...

[ChrisS]

I think you are being a just a tad touchy John, if anybody's not 'grown up' throwing their toys about its you. If you feel the 'criticism' is aimed at you then another proverb is due: If the cap fits wear it. Calm down please and be a little more grown up and let your anger disperse before posting.