Huge Luftwaffe Victories over USAAF?

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

On 30th August 1943, 44 P-38 Lightnings of the 1st Fighter Group escorted the 319th and 320th Bomb Groups to attack the marshalling yards at Aversa, Italy. All of the B-26 Marauders returned safely, but 13 Lightnings were lost. Luftwaffe pilots from JG 53 and JG 77 claimed to have shot down at least 32 Lightnings and two Marauders.

Forgot to mention that JG 3 was also engaged in those dogfights.

A few days later (2nd September 1943) 10 P-38s from the 82nd Fighter Group failed to return according to the MACR index, although I'm not certain that all losses were caused by enemy fighters. German pilots from JG 3, JG 53 and JG 77 claimed at least 18 P-38s destroyed.

[kb]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Out of curiosity who else besides II/JG26 engaged 8th AF on June 26, 1943? The 4th also had claims... Did JG 26 or LW records discuss damaged ships on the 26th?

At any rate, even if all the 56th claims for that day were 'imaginary' (one of the these was Bob Johnson) then losing 5 in one day for zero score was down the list from the 20th and 55th FG losses (Nov 43 and Feb 44) and certainly the 4th FG losses on two missions on D-Day where they lost 8 for zero claims.

Incidentally, 5 of the P38s downed on 11 Feb 1944 were due to encounters with II/JG26.

According to Caldwell's JG26 War Diary vol 2, the lone JG26 loss on 26 June 1943 was a III/JG26 a/c downed by 4FG near Dieppe.

Here are the LW claims against 8AF on 26 June, courtesy of Tony Wood.

26.06.43 Ltn. Fritz Karch 6./JG 2 Spitfire

£ 20 km. N.W. Le Havre: 3.500 m. 17.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Ltn. Georg -Peter Eder 12./JG 2 Spitfire £ 0175 / 05 Ost: 5.000 m. 18.02 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Ofw. Willi Stratmann 12./JG 2 B-1 7 £ 0155 / 05 Ost: 6.000 m. 18.05 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Fw. Martin Brendel 1./JG 2 B-1 7 £ 15 km. E. Lisieux: 6.000 m. 18.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Ltn. Fritz Karch 6./JG 2 B-1 7 £ Flugplatz St. Gâtien: 7.000 m. [Deauville]18.30 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Ofw. Immerl 2./JG 105 B-1 7 £ CE 4: 2.000 m. [Etampes] 18.44 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P -4 7 £ N. Neufchâtel: 8.000 m. 18.52 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.104
26.06.43 Maj. Josef Priller Stab/JG 26 B-1 7 £ Le Tréport -Dieppe: 7.000 m. 18.54 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.103
26.06.43 Ofw. Adolf Glunz 4./JG 26 P -4 7 £ N. Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.54 Film C. 2027/I VNE: ASM
26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P -4 7 £ Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.55 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.172
26.06.43 Fw. Günther Scholz 5./JG 26 P -4 7 £ 20 km. N. Neufchâtel: 2.500 m. 19.00 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.137
26.06.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 5./JG 2 B-1 7 £ östl. Dieppe: 6.500 m. 19.01 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 5./JG 2 P -4 7 £ QC 2: 5.550 m. [15 km. N.W. Cayeux] 19.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P -4 7 £ 10 km. N.W. Dieppe: 7 -8.000 m. 19.04 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.105
26.06.43 Ltn. Waldemar Radener 4./JG 26 P -4 7 £ 1 0 -12 km. N.N.W. Le Tréport: 400 m. 19.04 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.173
26.06.43 Fw. Peter Crump 5./JG 26 P -4 7 £ 1 5 -20 km. N.W. Somme Estuary: 300 m. 19.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.138
26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P -4 7 £ 10 km. N.W. Somme Estuary: 100-0 m. 19.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.174

[drgondog]

Mike - I don't have that set. What were primary sources on losses?

I bounce back and forth from Group histories on microfilm to MACR databases on armyairforces.com to Mighty 8th Diary to different group histories.

Like you I have about a 300 book reference library on WWII and about 30 for Korea/VietNam plus 40 reels of microfilm from Maxwell. At one time Jeff Ethell and I were gonna collaborate on 8th Fighter Command, pool our respective notes on the 4th and 355th then work together on the rest. I got pretty deep on the losses, but there was no website for MACR's - we were going to have to work the cards and fische.

How can I get a copy of the Andrews set?

BTW, we still have a gap between Andrews and the other sources.

on the 10th I have MACR's for 7 Macr's on the 78th. The microfilm for 78th FG (not the 82/83/84FS have a total of 10 lost, 7 to fighters/2 to flak and one to a mid air over England. I've loaned out my Price book on the 78th so can't use taht today for another peek.

I have to dig up my 353 stuff but Miller has 8 air losses and the Macr database has 7 macrs for the 353rd on the 6-12 bad day (but also claimed 16 on two separate missions that day).. it looks like this mission will rank right up there on the worst single Squadron loss with 6 for the 350th.

As for the 4 March fiasco there was a lot of bad weather involved.. I think Heinz Knocke related four confirmed on the 363rd before they 'escaped' into cloud cover but surely there were other units in the area.

It does make for interesting conversations.. I know Miller used USAF and 8th AF Historical Research records along with Damick - which is why I am curious to see if Andrews cut thes facts in different ways?

[shooshoobaby]

Bill - go to http://www.447bg.com/data/bp.pdf
As you will see they are not cheap but is a monumental work and a great research tool. I have seen them on E - bay and abebooks.com Primary sources on losses are MACRS
mike

[George Hopp]

Sorry, Shooshoobaby, but your internet link doesn't work for me. Are there any alternate links, as the Paul Andrews books sound very interesting.

[Frank Olynyk]

George,
Strip off the end of the address, to get http://www.447bg.com then click on Books.

Frank.

[shooshoobaby]

Bill and George , Frank is correct . I added too much on the web address.

[drgondog]

Mike - mine worked fine and I got in easily using your link.. I'm still pondering the value for $300 on the set but probably will do it.

Still, it bother me a little bit that no details on White/Reed/Cummins/Beaty and Lake (my earlier appeal) ar contained in the Combat Chronology that you have. My primary purpose would be to wrap up last of 355th/2SF details for revised ABD.

[shooshoobaby]

Bill - as you know , History is never perfect. I have sent corrected or new info to Paul a few times. Beaty , Cummins, Lake are listed , date unknown , no other info.
There is a Lt. Bob G. White listed 355th FG KIA 11 - 20 - 44 from New Mexico.No other info.

Are you looking for Rod W. Reed ?

I got my set about 5 years ago - it had some addendums. Maybe these have been updated?
Mike

[George Hopp]

George,
Strip off the end of the address, to get http://www.447bg.com then click on Books.

Frank.

Thank you very much for the revised address.
George