Ju 290A-4, W.Nr. 165

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear All,

This was the Ju 290 flown back to the U.S. by Col. Harold E. Watson and his men, July 28-31, 1945. I'm trying to ascertain the correct callout of the Werknummer. In a June 26, 1945 document prepared by Hauptmann Heinz Braun, Braun note it as serial No. 165. In William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich, Green has added a zero, making it W.Nr. 0165. But, still further, Phil Butler in his War Prizes has given it a 6-digit W.Nr., 110165. Yes, I understand that 3 and 4-digit W.Nrn. from earlier in the war were expanded to the 6-digit norm later on, but I'm trying to get a confirmation as to the situation in this specific case. I'd rather not quote facts not in evidence.

Regards,
Richard

[Kaiyan]

Hi,
I assume you are talking about the Ju.290 marked as FE-3400 I have this aircraft as Ju.290A-7 J 290 011 0196 PI+PS (OR PJ+PS apparently the aircraft was 'mis'-painted at some stage and the code stuck) with a bulbous turret on the nose. Was there another aircraft flown over??
The serial / works number 'style' comes from a plate taken from AM-57 there was a pic of this over at LEMB. (I tried to copy it here but don't work)
regards
kaiyan

[RolandF]

According to Kössler/Ott: "Die Grossen Dessauer" the complete WNr is 290110165, "0165" and "165" being abbreviations. "290" designating the type and "110165" the standard 6-digit WNr.
PI+PS was a standard Ju 290A-4 having received the A-7 nose turret as a "Musterflugzeug" for the A-7 version. Btw, the nose unit was easily detachable. The mis-lettering PI+PS/PJ+PS is explainable because written letters I/J are not distinguishable in written German. This means when changing the KG 200 code A3+HB to "PJ+PS" for a proposed Spain flight the painter took out the code from the pilot´s hand-written logbook.
WNr 110196 is wrong (KR+MU, 9V+IH from 1./FAGr 5, presumably destroyed at Rechlin-Roggenthin in April 10th 1945 during a bomb raid).

Regards

Roland

[Kaiyan]

Hi. many thanks for that it clears up a couple of small errors in my list.
regards

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear RolandF and Kaiyan,

My gut feel is that the initial W.Nr. was 165 or 0165, as William Green claimed, rather than this being a pilot's Flugbuch shorthand. All entries for the type in Green's book are 4-digit. As I recall, some aircraft that had only 3- or 4-digit Werknummern early on were converted to 6-digit Werknummern as the war progressed, but not necessarily all. Thus, I'd like to have a source that is either original documentation or at least a secondary source that acknowledges the change.

I've been down this road before with the Me 262. Jurleit tacked on "10" to the front of some 4-digit numbers in a flight log pertaining to Me 262's constructed at Kahla. I believe that the flight log is all he had to work with and he elected to just tack on the "10" to make the number conform to the 6-digit standard. So, I am skittish to make the same mistake here without corroboration.

Adding to my suspicion is, according to Green, the fact that so few Ju 290's were ever built or laid down:

Ju 290 V1
Ju 290A-0 W.Nr. 0150
Ju 290A-1 W.Nrn. 0152-0156
Ju 290A-2 W.Nrn. 0157-0159
Ju 290A-3 W.Nrn. 0160-0164
Ju 290A-4 W.Nrn. 0165-0169
Ju 290A-5 W.Nrn. 0170-0180
Ju 290A-6 W.Nr. 0185
Ju 290A-7 W.Nrn. 0181 & 0186 with 24 more planned, but only a small number were completed
Ju 290A-8 W.Nrn. 0211-0220, but only 2 or 3 built
Ju 290A-9 W.Nrn. 0182-0184
Ju 290B-1 - only 1 built

Now, whether Green had a predilection for short W.Nrn., I can't tell. The Me 209 prototypes have 4-digit numbers, Me 210's had 3-digit W.Nrn., and an Me 410A-1 had a 5-digit W.Nr. In a postwar report on the Ju 290, one of its pilots gives a short history of the type only quoting 3-digit W.Nrn., so this makes me very cautious.

Regards,
Richard

[Kaiyan]

Hi,
Don't know if this helps it's an extract from a post over on LEMB the post relates to the serials of Ju.290A2 AM-57 (Captured aircraft AIR MINISTRY No.57)

"The WNr. is in fact in the JFM / RLM ´ten digit´ serial system used by JFM in the 1941/1943 period. However when delivered to the Luftwaffe in mid/late 1943 period the ´secret code´system with ´ammunition code´ indentifying the maker had taken effect - hence ´h.w.u.´ as bottom line."
regards

[Mikael Olrog]

Hi Richard,

If Kössler/Ott have stated that the W.Nr. is written 290110165 then that is the official way to write it (they are meticulous in their research). You will undoubtly find abbreviated references to the W.Nr. in both Junkers, RLM and Luftwaffe documents as well as in loggbooks etc. but that is of course due to need to saving time/space when writing such a leangthy W.Nr.

It is reasonable to assume that Green had a need to save space in his large publication and therefore shortened W.Nr. to only for digits irrespectively of their original leangth and for the average readers who doesn't make his own W.Nr. lists that would have been ok, also making the text more readable to the reader.

Green didn't get the overall W.Nr. list correct as shown in the list presented by Kössler/Ott.
/Mike

[Nick Beale]

The Monogram Close Up on the Ju 290 (by Thomas H. Hitchcock) uses four-digit Werk Nummern throughout.

An RAF list of captured aircraft refers to A3+OB (at Flensburg) as "110/186."

[Seaplanes]

According to the RLM Flugzeug-Programm Nr. 227 of 15.12.1944, the total
production of Ju 290 (excluding prototypes and possible conversions) was
as follows:
Ju 290A-1 8 aircraft
Ju 290A-3 5 aircraft
Ju 290A-4 5 aircraft
Ju 290A-5 11 aircraft
Ju 290A-7 19 aircraft
Ju 290A-9 3 aircraft
Apparently these numbers included 6 aircraft destroyed before RLM
acceptance. No mention of a Ju 290A-2, A-6 or A-8.
The LP 227 give updated figures up to 30.11.1944 and I believe the
Ju 290 production had ended long before this date.

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear All,

I appreciate everyone's input on this. A vote of confidence in Kössler/Ott helps. The contradictory evidence from Hitchcock doesn't and suggests that the issue isn't nailed down. Perhaps Green and Hitchcock were using the same sources, or worse, one quoting from the other. Anyone have some tie-breaker original documentation? A Werknummer allocation list would be lovely.

Regards,
Richard