The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944

[Snautzer]

I have made a lot of maps including:
Allied losses over Holland 1940-1945 (per year)
Luftwaffe losses over Holland 1940-1945 (per year)
Unit movement maps of JG1 to JG54 1939-1945
Attacks on German production: including target, notes on targets and attack dates:

• Airplane industry
• Ball bearings
• Oil
• Refineries
• Oil Miscellaneous
• Rubber
• Submarine yard
• Tanks and motor Transport
• Armaments and miscellaneous engineering

Dispersal map of the Junker complex
RAF/USAAF bomb targets in Germany - Oct to Dec 1943

RAF/USAAF bomb targets in Germany - Jan to Jun 1944
Allied airbases in the ETO
Etc..

Most if not all can be found on LEMB here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...?showforum=403 It can happen that some maps are not active anymore. This is because lack of views over a period of time. The BatchGeo takes them down then. If needed i can repost those maps.
I will post the RAF september map in the Allied and Soviet Forum.

[hewasahero]

Luftwaffe fighters were seen to shoot this aircraft down. Why were there no claims? Were they stopped lower down? Even if the gun cameras were faulty, wouldn't each pilot back up the other's claim?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by hewasahero

Luftwaffe fighters were seen to shoot this aircraft down. Why were there no claims? Were they stopped lower down? Even if the gun cameras were faulty, wouldn't each pilot back up the other's claim?

Luftwaffenkommando West war diary for 20 September 1944:

Only small-scale reconnaissance operations were carried out during the day owing to weather conditions.

Four Bf 109 of NAG 13 operated between Aachen and Nancy but broke off due to bad weather. There is no mention of any combat and all returned safely.

Several claims were made by fighters on both the 19th and 21st however.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by hewasahero

Luftwaffe fighters were seen to shoot this aircraft down.

That might not be accurate. Was the height of interception verified, and who was the eyewitness?

Originally Posted by hewasahero

Why were there no claims? Were they stopped lower down? Even if the gun cameras were faulty, wouldn't each pilot back up the other's claim?

Maybe the Spitfire was shot down by Allied aircraft. Or ground fire.

Also the No. 1 PRU no longer existed in name; it was reorganized as five squadrons in October 1942. No. 16 Squadron was never part of the PRU - it was assigned to the Army Co-operation Command and later 2nd Tactical Air Force.

[hewasahero]

Thank you gentlemen. Yes, I've used 'PRU' in error here. 16 Squadron was part of 34Wg 2TAF on 20th Sept 1944. An eyewitness Nicolaas Lambrechtsen talks of 'a Spitfire which had been shot' nearly crashing into the back of his house at 14 Kerkstraat, Hees shortly before it actually crashed in the vicinity of the Petruskerk, Hees (link)…

http://www.netherlandsfoundation.org...-lambrechtsen/

(Warning: the statement 'Three Dutch civilians also died in that crash' may well be unsupported, and result from the conflation of this crash with another (see lower down))
(Warning: the date is incorrectly given, and is revised here) (link)…

http://www.netherlandsfoundation.org...-william-cain/

Article on this incident (in Dutch) (link)…

http://www.oorlogsdodennijmegen.nl/g...beurtenisID=13

(Warning: the picture is incorrect, and has a Spitfire of the wrong model and colour)
(Warning: the link to the pilot gives the wrong model Spitfire and gives 'Neerbosch' when Hees is much more likely)
(Warning: the SGLO Verlieslijst v6 contains at least one known and one probable error)
(Warning: the Arjen W. Kuiken reference (again in Dutch, under 'Reactie 2') conflates the Spitfire crash with the Mitchell crash in the same area on the 25th)

There are still a lot of cobwebs to be cleared away…!

[hewasahero]

Hello there!

There's a post about 16 Squadron, and Jimmy Taylor who shared quarters with John Brodby,
on my blog here…

http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/

Please take a look and say what needs adding or changing.

Thanks!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hewasahero

Something is strange here!
What is your sources for PL896 being the aircraft lost on 20.9.1944?
Published sources has this aircraft as
6 MU 20.7.44; 1PP Benson 14.10.44; 542 Sq 1.11.44; 71 MU 13.3.46; SOC 1.4.46

On the other hand PA893 is recorded as
6 MU 19.7.44; Benson 20.8.44; sortie to Arnhem area from Northolt 20.9.44 (P/O J R Brodby killed 14.9.45)
I don't know why Brodby is listed as kiiled on the 14th if the mission was flown on the 20th, but the important point is that PA893 looks very much correct while PL896 does not!

B Rgds
Stig

[hewasahero]

Hi Stig!

For John Brodby's last flight:
— 20 Sept 1944 is taken directly from 16 Squadron ORBs (and 16 Squadron Roll Of Honour held at IWM London concurs)
— PL896 is taken directly from 16 Squadron ORBs

Very keen to know the provenance of the information in your post.
Unless you can reference more authoritative sources than this, surely the working assumption has to be that:
— all other dates for his death are wrong
— PA893 and all other aircraft serial numbers are wrong

Thanks!
hewasahero

[Stig Jarlevik]

Oh well Hewasahero

Then I suppose it is up to what you believe in.
The two aircrafts record cards or 16Sq ORB. Both aircraft were at Benson and the glitch may be there somewhere.

Cheers
Stig

[hewasahero]

Stig,

There can be a large volume of confusion associated with this kind of research, and the fact that something is published is unfortunately no guarantee of the factual nature of what is on the page. All kinds of factors can lead to incomplete, misleading or erroneous information ending up in the public domain, even with the best and most open of intentions, and certainly transcripts of original documents, or even the original documents themselves, can contains errors.

On the two crashes that I've been researching (PL896 and FW211), I can point you to both online and offline sources which are either dubious or just plain wrong. According to his book 'One Flight Too Many' for example (a cracking read, by the way), Jimmy Taylor has the date of John Brodby's death wrong, and he also appears to have taken at face value an online reference to Brodby's crash having killed three civilians. This reference has since (and with a fair amount of heavy lifting) been rescinded by its author due to lack of evidence, and now seems to be a conflation between this crash and that of FW211 nearby, in which several civilians died. More information about FW211 and its upcoming memorial ceremony here…

http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/

The 16 Sqdn ORBs don't seem to say how John Brodby travelled to RAF Northolt however, and nothing rules out him having flown a different plane in each direction.

If we both keep worrying away at this, maybe we can get to the bottom of it. Are you up for it? I am.

If there are other documents at the National Archives, IWM London or the RAF Museum London you can point me to that promise to be relevant, I'd be happy to go and have a look.

All the best,
hewasahero