Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning

[Alex Smart]

Further reading of Marco Mattioli's book on the P38 in Italian Service.

After the Germans took over Guidonia air base on the 10th September 1943

"So the Centro Sperimentale's Lightning ended its career with the Regia Aeronautica Italiana by passing to the German Luftwaffe, and met its end during the Allied bombing actions upon Guidonia on the 1st and 3rd of June 1944. The Italian Lightning , caught by surprise outside its hangar was totally destroyed and its wreckage were picked up and piled up on a corner south of the air base alongside the scrap heap of German aircraft and other prottypes previously destroyed."

Alex

[shooshoobaby]

Alex - I screwed up. Meant to say P - 38 was from 14th FIGHTER GROUP.
12th AF - sorry! No more info on Girnth. Hopefully a Luftwaffe historian can help.
This is an excellent book. photos and info on all captured A/C etc. plus other operations.
Another excellent book , "KG 200 , LW most secret unit" by Thomas and Ketley - Hikoki Publications
Cheers

[Alex Smart]

hello Veltro,

A welcome responce.

Have seen the photos before.

There is one though that is not shown. It too is said to be a captured P38 but has different camoflage demarcation lines.

What of the 1st Fighter Group (P38's) Pilot who reported that he was shot down by a captured German P38 ( North Africa I beleive) on the 30th May 1943.

This was before the 12th June 1943 Sardinia landing Pilot and a/c serial number still undetermined as yet.

If both the Germans in N. Africa and also the Italians had captured P38's then it would fit the Rossi story of been shot down into the sea in one ( no date given for that event), this would also fit the Lerch report that he had no chance to fly the captured P38 due to it crashing before he had a chance to fly in it. While the other ended up at Rechlin as T9+XB for the 19th September 1943 Air Show and met its end during the Allied bombing actions upon Guidonia on the 1st and 3rd of June 1944. So when and why was it flown back to Italy ?

Martin Monti's stolen F5E serial 44-23725 an almost brand new a/c was flown into captivity by him on the 13th October 1944 and became T9+MK she was recaptured at Schwangau, Germany in May of 1945. She only had yellow undersides added after capture no other camoflage.

All for now

Great art work

Alex

[veltro]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

There is one though that is not shown. It too is said to be a captured P38 but has different camoflage demarcation lines.

I would need precise reference of the photo you are speaking of. There was no other P-38 captured by the Italians or in Italian markings, so I really don't know what it was.

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

What of the 1st Fighter Group (P38's) Pilot who reported that he was shot down by a captured German P38 ( North Africa I beleive) on the 30th May 1943.

Certainly it wasn't an Italian one and I have no informations at all of any P-38 captured by the Germans in the Mediterranean...

At any rate, please trash in the dubstin any reference to Martin Caidin's "Guido Rossi", which was nothing more than the expanded version of a B-series tale involving wife of US bomber pilot going to bed with that Italish fictional character and then with the betrayed pilot managing to get his revenge by shooting down the P-38 with a YB-40... pityful, pathetic garbage, which shouldn't be touched even with pliers...

BTW, the story of Martin J. Monti was discovered by me in details and published at first in one article in 1992 (it is scanned in one of the links of my previous posts) and then in one of my books in 1996.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Ferdinando,

Thank you for your reply.

At any rate, please trash in the dubstin any reference to Martin Caidin's "Guido Rossi", which was nothing more than the expanded version of a B-series tale involving wife of US bomber pilot going to bed with that Italish fictional character and then with the betrayed pilot managing to get his revenge by shooting down the P-38 with a YB-40... pityful, pathetic garbage, which shouldn't be touched even with pliers...

I haven't got a clue about this, what this all about , some new film or other ?

The 1st Fighter Group Pilots report was of a German P38, not an Italian one.

As for the other photo it might be able to see it on the new LEMB website if it survived from the old one. I have not looked in that section of late.

All the best , have a great day

Alex

[veltro]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

At any rate, please trash in the dubstin any reference to Martin Caidin's "Guido Rossi", which was nothing more than the expanded version of a B-series tale involving wife of US bomber pilot going to bed with that Italish fictional character and then with the betrayed pilot managing to get his revenge by shooting down the P-38 with a YB-40... pityful, pathetic garbage, which shouldn't be touched even with pliers...

I haven't got a clue about this, what this all about , some new film or other ?

To be precise, it was a novel titled (literally): "One of our fighters is shooting us down!" by Glenn Infield, published in early post-war years by an aviation magazine and whose plot was exactly as reported. This tale apparently fascinated Caidin, who made the story his own and proposed it again under his label...

It may sounds crazy but this is how it went...

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Just to perhaps reopen this thread, I recently saw in a book on Italian P-38's a picture of the first one that was captured. Front right forward nose shot, shows four numbers on the nose that end with 76, Is it possible to match the "76" to a Serial number ?

[Maciej Góralczyk]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hello,
Just to perhaps reopen this thread, I recently saw in a book on Italian P-38's a picture of the first one that was captured. Front right forward nose shot, shows four numbers on the nose that end with 76, Is it possible to match the "76" to a Serial number ?

Excellent observation! What you see is Lockheed Construction Number which does refer to USAAF serial number. The number on the photo appears to be 7167, which, if I count correctly, indicates a P-38G-1-LO s/n 41-12733.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Maciej Góralczyk

Excellent observation! What you see is Lockheed Construction Number which does refer to USAAF serial number. The number on the photo appears to be 7167, which, if I count correctly, indicates a P-38G-1-LO s/n 41-12733.

Don't know which photo you refer to, but the four digit numbers on the Lightning noses usually refer to the USAAF s/n.

There were two Lockheed c/n 7167,
first one 222-7167 which was 42-12733 (not 41-12733)
second one 422-7167which was 44-26163 (a P-38L-5). If it was converted to a F-5F/G is unknown to me.
I also thought all F-5A (based on the P-38G) were built as such from the beginning, ie no conversions later on meaning 42-12733 stayed as a P-38G.
But I might be wrong there.

If the nose carries 7167 as you suggest, I would say it rather indicates a J-model 42-67167.

What ever the case a good picture would probably settle it one way or the other
Cheers
Stig

[Maciej Góralczyk]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Don't know which photo you refer to, but the four digit numbers on the Lightning noses usually refer to the USAAF s/n.

There were two Lockheed c/n 7167,
first one 222-7167 which was 42-12733 (not 41-12733)
second one 422-7167which was 44-26163 (a P-38L-5). If it was converted to a F-5F/G is unknown to me.
I also thought all F-5A (based on the P-38G) were built as such from the beginning, ie no conversions later on meaning 42-12733 stayed as a P-38G.
But I might be wrong there.

If the nose carries 7167 as you suggest, I would say it rather indicates a J-model 42-67167.

What ever the case a good picture would probably settle it one way or the other
Cheers
Stig

Lockheed construction numbers recorded with small digits on the nose can be seen throughout the entire production run, I've seen them on Js as well - in such cases the last digits of the USAAF serial number are sometimes superimposed with large digits over the small c/n - see example here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21474


The photo in question might be found in 'Ali Straniere in Italia vol.6' p.7 and Avions No.210 p.24 (perhaps also in other sources, but I have these two publications at hand). It clearly isn't a J or L as it does not have the chin distinctive for these versions, nor a recon variant.

Now it would be useful to check the IARC for 42-12733 - does any US-based member would be so kind to call the AFHRA and request the file? Unfortunately, it usually takes them around half a year to handle requests sent by email.