The Eagles Over Europe Project

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

In trying to pinpoint where this is, I've run into the problem of which St Aubin and which Thiberville. There are several St Aubins, but none are especially close to a Thiberville. To which airfield is this referring at which St Aubin? Perhaps the unit was also based at two different locations during this period, but I don't think that this is the case. Is Thiberville the name of an airfield location near or in one of the places named St Aubin? I./ZG2 was based there from 06.08.40 to 28.08.40, so it would have had to have been a location appropriate for Zerstörer operations during the Battle of Britain.

I'm sure that one of our French board readers will immediately know the answer to this.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Someone sent me a message that this St Aubin must have been Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon, France, about 4 kms N of Thiberville. This area is about 25-30 kms SE of Le Havre, France, which would make sense for a Battle of Britain AF location for I./ZG2.

One thing that puzzles me, Thiberville is a actually a much larger village than Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. So I'm wondering if the Bf110s of I./ZG2 used landing fields at both locations, or the main airfield was actually closer to Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon. It makes a difference in how we explain this. If this is correct it would be Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon Airfield 4 kms N of Thiberville, France. Or maybe the airfield was not really an airfield, but just open ground somewhere between these two villages where the Luftwaffe simply set up a temporary airfield.

Who knows where I./ZG2 actually operated from in this area during August, 1940?

[edwest]

Hi Larry,


Are you familiar with this book which claims to be an A to Z list of Luftwaffe airfields?


http://www.amazon.de/Flugpl%C3%A4tze.../dp/3866190549




Usual Disclaimer,
Ed

[Larry deZeng]

Apologies for intruding here, but unless I am terribly mistaken the Jürgen Zapf series of books on Luftwaffe airfields only covers those in Germany, region-by-region-Thüringen, Mecklenburg und Vorpommern, Hamburg und Schleswig-Holstein, Sachsen, etc.

“Mit dieser ersten Veröffentlichung in Buchform legt der Verfasser erstmals eine Zusammenfassung zur Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region Deutschlands vor.”

In regard to the “Gesamtverzeichnis” volume:

Lexikon aller Flugplätze von A -Z: Mit dem 2000 erschienenen ersten von inzwischen sechs Bänden der Reihe Flugplätze der Luftwaffe 1934 - 1945 und was davon übrig blieb hatte der Autor erstmals eine zusammengefasste Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region vorgelegt. Bisherige Veröffentlichungen hatten in der Hauptsache die Chronik eines Luftwaffenverbandes oder das eigene persönliche Erleben in der Luftwaffe zum Inhalt. Wenige andere Veröffentlichungen bezogen sich auf die Geschichte eines einzelnen Flugplatzes der Luftwaffe oder aber auf die Geschichte der Verkehrsflughäfen. Auf vielfältigen Wunsch aus dem Kreis der Leser nach einer Übersicht aller Flugplätze der Luftwaffe entstand mit diesem Buch ein Lexikon aller Plätze auf dem Machtgebiet des Deutschen Reiches am Vorabend des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Aufgeführt werden alle die Plätze, die zwischen 1934 - 1945 zumindest kurzfristig von der Luftwaffe genutzt wurden oder zur Nutzung vorgesehen waren. Der Lexikoncharakter des Werkes bringt es dabei mit sich, dass die aufgeführten Plätze nur knapp beschrieben werden. Jeder Platz wird mit genauen Längen- und Breitengrad-Koordinaten, der Klassifizierung (z.B. als Feldflugplatz, Fliegerhorst o.ä.), einer Beschreibung seiner örtlichen Lage sowie einer kurzen Beschreibung seiner Geschichte gelistet. Ein Bildteil mit Dokumenten, verschiedenen Luftbildaufnahmen und einigen Aufnahmen von Plätzen einst und jetzt, teils in Farbe, beschließt den Band. Die ausführlichere Beschreibung einschließlich der genauen Angaben der Nutzung durch die Luftwaffe sowie Luftbilder und andere Aufnahmen bleibt den Bänden der Reihe vorbehalten. Autor: Jürgen Zapf

In other words, it’s a summarized directory and index to the 2,000 airfields in the Reich (Germany and Austria) that the author covers in detail in his 8 or 9 previously published volumes.The airfields of France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc., are not covered, according to the many advertising blurbs and reviews that I have read for the author’s books.

L.

[Kutscha]

Is M. Holm's site wrong? http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg2.htm

It has I./ZG2 based at:

18.5.40 - 7.40 Neufchateau
7.40 - 9.40 Amiens-Glissy

In http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf Neufchateau has I./ZG2 based there but Amiens-Glissy does not have I./ZG2 based there.

There is no mention of St Aubin-Thiberville that I could find.

[Larry deZeng]

Just 4 km SSW of Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon is the village of Thiberville. It is quite possible that the contraction "Saint-Aubin - Thiberville" refers to an alternate landing ground between these two villages that was never used. But it is not listed in the 38-page A.I.2.(b) Gazetteer of airfields in North and West France dated 1.9.1943 that has approximately 1,064 listings.

L.

[Larry Hickey]

Kutscha,

Thanx for your comments. I'm aware of the sources that say "Amiens-Glissy" as a I./ZG2 base during this period. However, Gerhard Stemmer says that there is no evidence that I./ZG2 was ever based there. He has provided a very detailed list of bases for 1940 that I gave in my other post relating to this subject last night. I consider Gerhard's data much more reliable information than the other sources. So we are back to trying to establish where in the St Aubin-Thiberville area the airfield was where I./ZG2 was based.

I./ZG2 is a very difficult unit as apparently most of their historical records, including most of their victory claims did not survive the war. We know less that half of those, and the "turks" (estimated) claims list created by Hans Ring have not turned out to be reliable. The detailed scores of a couple of the unit's pilots that have become known since these were compiled have served as a cross check and Ring's estimates for these same pilots have all turned out to be inaccurate . So it doesn't surprise me that even the airfield locations for I./ZG2 are also incomplete or inaccurate. With the EoE Project, we're trying to rectify this as much as we can, but the absence of data will only allow our team to take this so far.

Anyone who has items such as FB, or even NJG victory claims lists that take ex-I./ZG2 aircrew men back to their service with that unit, may be the only sources we ever have to improve the victory data for that unit. I keep hoping that someone will turn up a contemporary victory list, but as time passes and nothing surfaces, that is appearing less and less likely.

As I've posted before, we have similar problems with the 1940 victory lists for Gruppenstab and 14.(Z)/LG1, II./ZG1 (later III./ZG76), Stab, and II./ZG2 (ex I./ZG52), Stab, I and II./ZG26 and I./ZG52 (later II./ZG2), and III./ZG76 (ex-II./ZG1) making it unlikely that we will ever get an accurate and complete listing of "official" LW victory claims for the Zerstörer units during 1940. The only progress that we've made on this in several years are for individual pilots, such as Eduard Tratt for I./ZG2 and Elstermann for II./ZG2. Unless someone is sandbagging this info somewhere, a comprehensive resolution for any of these units now appears unlikely. If anyone has even individual scores from hard sources for any pilots from the units listed above, I'd sure appreciate hearing from them.

[edwest]

Perhaps this:


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Frankreich.htm




Ed

[Larry deZeng]

According to the Luftwaffe "Air Offensive Against England" (Battle of Britain) OB found in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. and reproduced in numerous postwar books, such as
Balke, Ulf - Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die Operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwader 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teil 1. Das Luftkriegsgeschehen 1939-1941: Polen, Frankreich, England, Balkan, Russland. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1989. ISBN: 3-7637-5883-6. Pb. 526p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices,
page 412, I./ZG 2 was based at Caen-Carpiquet with 41 Bf 110C on 13 August 1940.

L.

[Larry Hickey]

Larry, et. al.

Gerhard has looked at this post and has responded:

"The entries in my list are resulting from Flugbuchs. Furthermore there is an accident recorded for I./ZG 2 at St.Aubin dated 12.08.40 which is in contrast to the entry in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. that the unit was on 13.08.40 still at Caen-Carpiquet."

This points out the problem of incomplete or inaccurate records regarding I./ZG2 during this period. I also note that Balke records that the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 on 13 August was Hptm. (Eberhard) Heinlein, but we now believe that that is not entirely accurate. My information is that after losing the Gr Kdr (Ott) on 11.08, and the Acting Gr Kdr (Kubel) on 12.08, that the new Acting Kdr was Hpt. Dr. Rudolf Christians, who served in that capacity for some unknown period (probably not more than a few days at most) until Hptm Eberhard Heinlein took command sometime later in August. He was Gr Kdr until the until was disolved around 25.09.40. He was killed in a flying accident on 28.09.04 during a ferry flight from the unit's last base at Toussus-le-Noble, France, to Augsberg, Germany, when the unit's assets were being transferred into the night fighter forces.

The deZeng-Stankey LOCS data base says that Heinlein was appointed Gr Kdr effective 13.08.40, but Christians apparently served as Acting Kdr for some unknown period until Heinlein, who was the Sta Kap of 6./ZG2, could arrive and take charge. It's a small point, but any further clarification of this would be helpful.

Regarding the base problem, my suspicion is that I./ZG2 was in the process of moving from Caen-Carpiquet to St Aubin-Thiberville during this period leading up to mid-August, and the issue is when they officially closed out the Gruppe command post at the former and officially became fully operational from the latter. I don't know if that can ever be completely resolved, but clearly there would have been some transitional period involved between the two places, which there would always be when a unit moved from one base to another.

This really get into the info on another post that I have active here on this unit, as I think we've identified which St Aubin Airfield we're talking about, although its precise location in the vicinity of that village is still in some doubt in my mind. That should still be able to be rather precisely determined.

Who has anything further to add here?