Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov

[David P. Williams]

Hi,

Back in 1998/1999 i corresponded with Gerd Thyben who sent me a certain amount of material about his career. He also took the time to type (by use of a type writer, not a computer) a list of all his victories.

In this list, regarding 29.06.44 he quoted the following.

29.06.44 07.02 hours Plq 81 447 Jak-9 flying an Me 109 G2 5.JG 54

This planquadrate would seem at odds with what has been discussed about the shooting down of this Yak-9. I hope this helps rather than hinders. All the best,

(The second victory on that day was 08.03 hours Plq 91 349 Airacobra)

[MikeFox]

Hello Juha and David,

Yes, I do have LeR 3 in my library and I agree that at the height of the summer offensive in '44 that the Finns just took to the skies with any Bf-109 they had without repainting them. I guess there is no 100% way of declaring who shot down Zelenov. The only option is to study the available evidence and make an educated guess.

David,
It must have been amazing to correspond with Thyben personally! With that being said, I have to say that I was surprised that Thyben said he was flying a Bf-109 on the date in question. I say that because 5/JG.54 was equipped with FW.190s at the time, not Bf.109s. The German unit stationed in Finland at that time only had like 5 or 8 Bf.109s assigned to them and they were of the G6 version, not G2, and supposedly they had left Finland the day before. So, your statement is indeed interesting. Was Thyben flying a borrowed Finnish Bf.109?

Mike

[David P. Williams]

Mike,

My apologies. You are indeed correct, i misread the table of information he gave me. Re-checked it now and he was flying an Fw 190, but doesn't state which model! Does the different Planquadrate i gave from Thyben shed anymore light on the matter. Does it put him any closer to where Zelenov was shot down? All the best and apologies for the mistake.

[Mark Steinitz]

Thanks to Dave Williams for citing Planquadrat 81447 from Gerhard Thyben's own victory list as the location of his Jak-9 victory of June 29, 1944. I have what appears to be the same list, except I got it more recently from Thyben's son. The list in my possession also states that Thyben's Jak-9 victory claim from 29 June 1944 occurred at 81447.

I should have checked it earlier when Planquadrat expert Andreas Brekken suggested to me that the Planquadrat for the Thyben Jak-9 victory, as cited in Tony Wood's Loss List (21447), was likely incorrect. As noted in one of my previous messages on this thread, Andreas told me that perhaps the victory had been scored at 91447 since 21447 was nowhere close to Vyborg. Armed with the new information from David Williams, I went back to Andreas Brekken to see which location was closer to Vyborg: Thyben's Jak-9 victory as recorded in his personal list at 81447 or Lt. Seevers' Jak-9 victory of the same morning at 81352 (from Tony Wood). Seevers is the only other known German who qualifies as Zelenov's victor.

Andreas once again generously shared his knowledge with me, and I am passing it on to readers of 12OCH. Below is the text of his email to me, which includes two attached maps. I hope readers will be able to open them because they are quite illustrative. As you will see, Andreas places Thyben's victory (assuming it took place at 81447) as being closer to Vyborg than Seever's claim. (This is the same conclusion Andreas reached when he speculated that Thyben's win took place at 91447). Andreas also points out (once again) that while Thyben's victory is closer to Vyborg, Seever's is still in the same general area.

My own opinion remains that if Zelenov was shot down by a German and not a Finn, then Thyben is the more likely German victor. Still,it is difficult to have a high level of confidence in this probability with the evidence at hand. If we could establish when Zelenov was shot down, it might help. On Tony Wood's list, Thyben's Jak-9 score is recorded at 0703 (0702 on Thyben's own list), while Seevers' Jak-9 went down at 0810, according to Tony Wood. As before comments and new evidence or analysis are welcome. Here is Andreas' e-mail with maps.

"Hi, Mark.

Sorry for my long absence, but I have been on vacation with no internet for about a week.

I have attached two maps, which show the CENTER point of the locations you mentioned. Please remember that the gradnetz location would be an area surrounding this center point (at the scale we are talking here, the size of the area would be about 3x4 kilometers (note the range bar showing 9 km in the maps upper corners)).

But, it looks like 26 OST 81447 would be closer to Vyborg, but that both locations would be in the same general area.

This is the center of this location:


(SEE PIC1.JPG)

And this is the center of 26 OST 81352:


(SEE PIC2.JPG)

If the fight was said to have been taking place over Vyborg, I would guess the first location would be more fitting.

Regards,
Andreas"

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Very interesting thread. I would like to make couple of comments.


Looking at the maps provided by Andreas it becomes clear that Thyben's claim is actually further away from Viipuri (Vyborg) than Tali. Please see the map attached below. Tali is under text 18D NE of Viipuri and Thyben’s claim west of Uuras island (left border of the map).

This map is a part cropped from address (copyright unknown, style is similar to Suomen Sota book series):
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Kartat/cwdata/44KannasTapahtumat9-20.6.html



So Thyben's claim is west of island Uuras in Vyborg Bay. Soviet 59 Army IIRC tried invasion over the bay early July 1944 (preparations and attempts earlier too). This invasion was supported by Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF). Seever’s claim is also for this area.

FinnAF pilot vääp Aaltonen made his claim over Tali during the same morning (June 29th) between 07.25-08.25 AM (Finnish time is German time + 1 hour). Tali-Ihantala was the domain of Soviet 13th Air Army (“Army” VVS) to which 29 GIAP belonged. For some reason LeR 3 –book by Keskinen et al has Aaltonen’s claim connected to 15 ORAK, KBF i.e. Baltic Fleet (should be 15 OKRAP?) Yak-9 loss. At least I am wondering what would naval reconnaissance plane do over the focus of the ground force battle. And Army fighter plane over water (and archipelago) area of planned invasion.

If you ask me it is more probable that either Thyben or Seever shot down the 15 ORAP Yak-9 and lt. Aaltonen shot down the 29 GIAP Yak-9. That is judging from the info available to me at this point of time.


Regards,
Kari

[Nokose]

While looking up information on Gerd Thyben this old post came up. I checked Mikhail Bykov's book on "Soviet Aces" and found Kapt. Nikolay Andrianovich Zelenov of the 14 GIAP who was killed on a Yak-9 during a flying accident on the 29 June 1944. So that can eliminate him as being shot down by Thyben.