The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?

[Boomerang]

Edward:

The Chuck Yeager mission you refer to appears to be discussed in Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary. Caldwell states that, on 12 October 1944, Yeager claimed three Bf 109s shot down, plus two whose pilots bailed out when Yeager got on their tails. You might want to look at Caldwell's account.

Cheers

Don W

[mars]

Originally Posted by Juha

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

The problem was of course Marseille was not the only Axis pilots who made the claims that day. other than him:
6/JG 27 Oblt Rudolf Sinner 2 P-40s
Stab II/JG 27 Gustav Rodel: 1 P-40
I/JG 27 Hans Remmer: 1 P-40
7/JG 27 Fw Walter Fink: 1 Spitfire
1/JG 27 Obfw Gunther Steinhausen 1 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Lt Hans-Anold Stahlschmidt 2 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Karl von Lieres und Wilkau 1 Hurricance

Italians also claimed 5 P-40s and 3 spitfires

[Broncazonk]

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Yes, Lundstrom's books are excellent, I bought my copy of The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign a decade or two ago because his earlier The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway was so good.

Juha

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Hello Bronc,

As you can see from Lundstrom’s book, claims are an unreliable statistic As for the effect of this on the campaign, I am less certain. The Japanese lost air superiority because they did not have enough trained aircrew and good aircraft to decisively win the carrier battles. They might have been able to hang on for an extended period even without a carrier victory, had they been able to knock out US aviation on Guadalcanal. However, that would have required very close cooperation between surface ships and the land-based air forces, which was almost impossible because of the low quality and quantity of Japanese radios. The US victory in the Pacific was over-determined after Midway, the problems encountered during the Guadalcanal campaign can be exaggerated.

Regards,

Paul

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

I've been reading John B. Lundstrom's, The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign : Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942 which is superlative. (I read it cover to cover, and then immediately began reading it again.)

Lundstrom studied Japanese after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared Japanese aerial combat victory claims against actual American losses. He also studied American after-action reports for every day of the campaign (including Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) and compared American aerial combat victory claims against actual Japanese losses.

BUY THIS BOOK.

It's absolutely shocking--the documented Japanese over-claiming in particular--to the point that the constant, daily, every single mission 5x and even 10x over-claiming had (in my opinion) a significant effect on the outcome of the entire Solomons campaign.

Bronc

Got both of Lundstrom's books & enjoyed them both. I have to point out RE: the Japanese tendency to overclaim: I think it's similar to Italian fighter pilot issues: Their (Japan & Italy) aircraft are light & maneuverable & to a certain extent underarmed--and the pilots tend to practice an individualistic combat style--and allied fighters are often well armored/protected.

When they fire on, say a wildcat or a tomahawk, the first thing the allied pilot is going to do is DIVE at full throttle & then probably try to climb back into the fight. That diving, smoking plane is probably going to be the basis of several 'kill claims'. I think during Lundstrom's recounting of the Coral Sea Battles, he opined on at least one occasion a Wildcat pilot tangled with zeros in three separate dogfights on the same mission. No doubt he got claimed as shot down by all of them.

[Juha]

Originally Posted by mars

The problem was of course Marseille was not the only Axis pilots who made the claims that day. other than him:
6/JG 27 Oblt Rudolf Sinner 2 P-40s
Stab II/JG 27 Gustav Rodel: 1 P-40
I/JG 27 Hans Remmer: 1 P-40
7/JG 27 Fw Walter Fink: 1 Spitfire
1/JG 27 Obfw Gunther Steinhausen 1 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Lt Hans-Anold Stahlschmidt 2 Hurricance
2/JG 27 Karl von Lieres und Wilkau 1 Hurricance

Italians also claimed 5 P-40s and 3 spitfires

Yes but some 10 other Allied SE fighters were damaged of which several crash-landed and so IMHO it would be understandable if those crash-landed were claimed as kills.

Juha

[mars]

Originally Posted by Juha

Yes but some 10 other Allied SE fighters were damaged of which several crash-landed and so IMHO it would be understandable if those crash-landed were claimed as kills.

Juha

No, that was not true, RAF lost 12 aircrafts shot down or crash landing as a result of enemy fighters or fail to return from mission, causes unknown, these includes at least 2 Hurricances lost in reconnaissance missions that could hardly be the Marseille's "Kills", apart from that RAF also lost 1 fighter shot down by flak and another fighter shot down by "friendly" fire

[Nokose]

With Soviet claims on the eastern front it's not always an easy thing to determine as sometimes the pilots with just one victory in an area has to be taken into the picture. I mentioned in another post of 1 Bf 109 of JG 54 showed 10 Soviet pilots claiming in that area for the day. Also some German losses were contributed to AAA when there could have been a Soviet fighter that actually made the kill. Also the time of the Luftwaffe loss is not available to check as I tried to determine a I./JG 26 loss on the 14 Mar 43.

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Nokose

With Soviet claims on the eastern front it's not always an easy thing to determine as sometimes the pilots with just one victory in an area has to be taken into the picture. I mentioned in another post of 1 Bf 109 of JG 54 showed 10 Soviet pilots claiming in that area for the day. Also some German losses were contributed to AAA when there could have been a Soviet fighter that actually made the kill. Also the time of the Luftwaffe loss is not available to check as I tried to determine a I./JG 26 loss on the 14 Mar 43.

Good points, Nokose!