Question about RAF /SOE Lysander Nav methods

[researcher111]

Was wondering regarding the Navigation methods used by those
RAF Lysander pilots in charge with inserting SOE operatives into
occupied France in 1943 and as into crossing the channel and landing at night
near IMC conditions or on whether no flying into known night
IMC conditions was authorised . Finally if any of those special
duty pilots were ever captured and on what mission.

Thanks in advance

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Researcher111,

This is a subject I am found as well. There are quite a lot of experts here on the Forum, who will add much more than my humble small knowledge, but I suggest you some excellent material for Reading:
1- BLACK LYSANDER (by John-Nesbitt Dunfort, DSO, DFC) here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1...wnigelperri-21 (this one I DO NOT HAVE YET)
2- WE LANDED BY MOONLIGHT (by another decorated flyer, Hugh Verity, DSO, DFC) here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/We-Landed-Mo...dp/0947554750;
3- AIRBORNE ESPIONAGE (here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airborne-Esp...ations+ww2+SOE)
4- SOE IN FRANCE (by M R D Foot)

I do remember by heart, that Hugh Verity's book is amazing....full of details, etc...The navigation was (if memory does not fail me) done on 1,250:000 maps (folded) and one had to pinpoint the major landing marks on the grounds. Of course, the selection to be "part" of either 138 or 161 Squadron was strict...the pilots had to have at least 500 hours and some "hundreds of ours" by night...no unexperienced airmen were allowed to join....believe me! I do not have the book at hand now...so I can not inform precisely, but this is a "MUST HAVE" on the shelve...believe me!

YES, there were accidents...but I do not remember one of the members being captured. Some needed to "run" and werer rescued by similar rescue operations on another landing grounds...There is a list of all Allied aircraft lost on this kind of operations (on PDF format). I will have a check on my files to dig this out for you.

From what I have read and researched, they wouldn't take off if the conditions were below minimums IFR, because they wouldn't have how to return home. However, those were long missions and the weather do change quite a lot during this time, this is why some of those airmen had narrow missings with death, while landing at below minimums conditions...there were crashes and deaths, due to fog, etc...

It is really SAD that NO BOOK has appeared about 138 and 161 Squadrons yet...I mean a full Squadron History, etc...with Logbooks, etc....I do have the GREATEST Admiration for those SD Airmen and aircrew....and guys, those were times with NO GPS....just stick and ruder, and dead reckoning navigation....

I do humbly hope this is of interest. I do apologize if "I am raining on the wet"....I mean, if you already know this and are looking for a deeper information.

Yours,
Adriano S. Baumgartner

Adriano S. Baumgartner

[researcher111]

Adriano

Thanks very much for the detailed feedback,and I will revert back soonest
BR
Alex L

[Adriano Baumgartner]

ALEX L.,

From what I do remember, the Lysander Operations were all standard, in terms of Navigation (dead reckoning, visual checking of the "L" on the ground and established signal of the day, etc..). It seems, some Halifaxes and Stirlings that were used on SD Squadrons did have H2S and GEE, some NAV aids for long range trips. If memory does not fail me, there are pictures of (at least) Halifaxes with those gadgets (antenas, etc.).

The PDF file I informed you can be found here: http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/Aircr...Operations.pdf

On page 13 you will find the first accident of Nesbitt-Dufort:
Mission: Operation Beryl II
Forced landing 02.10 due to low fuel and icy plane on returning in poor weather near Coudray farm 2 km S W Saint-Florent-sur-Cher (Cher). Aircraft damaged beyond repair and written off
Pilot: capitaine John Nesbitt-Dufort

There are a lot more on the file....you will surely find it amazing and quite interesting. On the incredible book of SOE in France, by MRD Foot, there are tables of missions and a special chapter dedicated to the Air Operations.

As I told you, I would like to read John Nesbitt-Dufort book, but it is yet on the wish list for Xmas....the book of Hugh Verity is one of the most treasured books I ever read...it is FANTASTIC and I really enjoyed it.

There are several sites about 161 and 138 Squadron and even Tempsford Airfield (with some memorials),etc...

I do not know what you are looking for, but if you need a more precise approach, please do ask here. There are EXPERTS on every field of Aviation History here, from a simple sprog writer-to-be, like me, to Famous writers and persons who read, research and live WW2 History for more than 2 or 3 decades....and we are all linked by this love for the subject, something that is greater than ourselves....(wives do not like this passion, believe me!!! and when we spent too much on books, photographs at Ebay, etc...but "c'est la vie").

All the best and I do hope to have helped...By the way please do let me correct my English writing on the last (previous) posting:
"I am fond of"
"rudder"

Yours,
Adriano S. Baumgartner

[Larry]

In his book Winged Hours by Frank Griffiths, he mentioned that Rebecca Eureka was used by 138 Sqn and French Resistance, with one device being planted in a large church / cathedral's spire, so that 138 Sqn aircraft could get a 'reply' from it if they needed to know their position. This was done at great risk to the person from the French Resistance who needed to change the battery occasionally. It was never found by the Germans.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

ALEX L.,

Well I managed to have a look at my own copy of Verity's book "We landed by moonlight".

Answering your questions:
PAGE 16: To volunteer to fly with both 138 and 161 Squadrons one had to have at least 250 NIGHT flying hours on his Logbooks....(some did not have, but managed to be posted as the author inform us). This was a huge amount by the standards of that time....

PAGE 22: The "technique" adopted by the old-hands of the Squadron was to prepare (for each mission it seems so) a flight plan with 1:500,000 maps cut, so that the track the pilot wished to follow with be in the middle with some 50 miles of terrain to each side of it (in each panel = page of the map) as Verity said: "I folded up the map so that I could hold it in one hand and study 2 panels while flying the aeroplane with the other hand....the last two panels were on twice the scale (1:250,000) to give more detail around the target."

I hope it solves the question about the Navigation problems those airmen were faced...and the caliber of courage, skill, determination, self control, IFR training required for this kind of mission. As I told you, as a former comercial pilot, I do have the greatest admiration for those airmen of SD (RAF and USAAF) Squadrons...they did a "helluva" job and not so much was written about those Squadrons...I mean a full Squadron History, etc...

OBS: If you do manage to buy and read the book "Black Lysander", please do inform me your commentaries of it...

Most sincerely yours,
Adriano S. Baumgartner

[researcher111]

Adriano

Thanks so much for your comprehensive updates, likewise I would to address this topic with some deeper stuff I am right now working on, therefore and hopefully this weekend I will be able to revert to you with an update. In the mean time there are a few books I would recommend you as into special duty RAF Squadrons . A Man Called Intrepid , A Life In Secrets by Vera Atkinks , Operative Spies & Saboteurs , From Hitler's Doorsteeps,Ops Autonomous .I am going to buy this book
too, in the meantime would appreciate updates from that book.

Also visit the site

http://www.paulmccuebooks.com/the-104-agents

Particularly I would like to get more details on the special duty sqd based at Tocra operating B-24's. On this respect I would like to cite several agent drop missions
from Lybia on October, November and December 1943 to Romania, Yugoslavia when IMC WX was encountered at night over the drop zones leading to miscalculations and wrongly chosen drop areas ultimately causing these missions to be a complete failure.

As into the Lysanders in my view they must have used some local radio stations as a QDM/ QDR aid eventually something similar to the Big Fence and some sort
of Radar vectoring to a specific fix or intersection beyond which radio silence was mandatory,the rest of the training is as you stated .Interesting that despite
Luftwaffe advanced technology very few Lysanders were intercepted by their night fighters , however due something called "funkspiel " they have deliberately
left some of these planes to land in order to have their "cargo" monitored in order to lead SD to rest of the infiltrated circles , groups and Resistance .

Mind asking what equipment were you type rated on ?

Larry ,

Thanks for your update , I was not aware about Rebecca Eureka nor that type of transponder, although there must have been a great risk involving the use of such beacons due to strong activities by the local German wireless detection mobile and stationary units some attached to SD and some to Luftwaffe in France

Best Regards
Alex K

[Nick Beale]

In case you haven't seen it, this is an interesting site about the Special Ops flights: http://www.plan-sussex-1944.net/angl...nto_france.pdf

[researcher111]

Nick

Details highly appreciated, will study the material and revert with an update
in due course. Also since I don't live in UK , I was wondering what the British
press is saying nowadays regarding Vera Atkins who was indirectly related to the
Lysander insertion missions into France , some reports allegedly saying that the
Romanian Jewish woman was a double player later on even part of the Philby's ring and
her boss Col.Buckmaster was a clumsy & messy superior despite numerous awards and
good Ike references on him . She worked later on at Unesco while Buckmaster back at
Ford Motors .

Thanks in advance

BR
Alex K

[Larry]

With Rebecca Eureka I think the Germans didn't locate the device because Eureka only transmitted in response to a transmission from Rebecca and that was on a different frequency and with a slight time delay.