Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940

[rafcommands]

First the AAF did not become the RAuxAF until after the war and AAF was not incorporated as it was always a seperate reserve service with special rules. AAF service numbers were retained post Sept 39.

Next the service number 800420 suggests that the AAF OR Saunders was the 420th airman to be enlisted in that service (it records all AAF airmen not just pilots).

Since enlistment in the block commenced in 1925 his entry would have been in the late 1920s

If you look at the age of P/O R L Saunders killed with No.57 Sqn you will see that it is very unlikely that they are the same person.

Instead of guessing the best way to get full details of his service career is to apply to the MoD for a copy of his service record.

This will reveal all without shadow of doubt.

Ross

[BlenheimBuff]

Hello Ross,

Yes, I think that you're right.....the only way to be sure is to apply for the MOD records. It just seems so unlikely though to have 2 people in the service with such an unusual name.

Thanks for your insights.

Ian

[rafcommands]

Checking Air Force Lists shows that P/O R L Saunders was serving with No.57 Sqn from Nov 1938,

Checking furher back in 1938 he is listed as RAFO (Reserve of Air Force Officers)

So service prior to 1938 as either Commisioned RAF/AAF/RAFVR regular or direct Commisioned entry to RAFO,

Transfer from P/O RAFO to P/O RAFVR and new personal number issued.

Searching futher in The Gazette

He was Commissioned into RAFO 21st Dec 1936
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...e/171/data.pdf

Confirmed
19th Oct 1937
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8139/data.pdf

Ross

[rafcommands]

This was a prewar accident wuth No.57 Dqn

The second page shows wings date and flying hours

http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/...9/00801345.JPG
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/...9/00801346.JPG
F1180 Copyright RAF Museum

Ross

[BlenheimBuff]

Hello again Ross,

Many thanks for this information, I appreciate you taking the effort.

Regards,

Ian

[paulmcmillan]

Originally Posted by rafcommands

Next the service number 800420 suggests that the AAF OR Saunders was the 420th airman to be enlisted in that service (it records all AAF airmen not just pilots

Ross I am not sure this is correct. He would be the 420 person enlisted in 600 Squadron

601 Sqn started at 801000

So it could be the same person based on age

800000 800999 RAuxAF UK 600 Squadron
801000 801999 RAuxAF UK 601 Squadron
802000 802999 RAuxAF UK 602 Squadron
803000 803999 RAuxAF UK 603 Squadron
804000 804999 RAuxAF UK 605 Squadron
805000 805999 RAuxAF UK 606 Squadron
806000 806999 RAuxAF UK 606 Squadron
807000 807999 RAuxAF UK 607 Squadron
808000 808999 RAuxAF UK 608 Squadron
809000 809999 RAuxAF UK 609 Squadron
810000 810999 RAuxAF UK 610 Squadron
811000 811999 RAuxAF UK 611 Squadron
812000 812999 RAuxAF UK 500 Squadron
813000 813999 RAuxAF UK 501 Squadron
814000 814999 RAuxAF UK 502 Squadron
815000 815999 RAuxAF UK 504 Squadron
816000 816999 RAuxAF UK 612 Squadron
817000 817999 RAuxAF UK 613 Squadron
818000 818999 RAuxAF UK 614 Squadron
819000 819999 RAuxAF UK 615 Squadron
820000 820999 RAuxAF UK 616 Squadron
821000 879999 RAuxAF UK Balloon squadrons of the AuxAF

I think I got this list from Aces High...

[rafcommands]

Hi Paul,

As I progressed with AFL I wondered about this and considered if it was vestiage of paper transfer using a unissued/free service number.

The possible senario was enlistment into AAF, service as either ground or Sgt Pilot then commission.

The F1180 shows date of wings as April 1937 and The Gazette as Commission to RAFO Dec 1936. This negates the possibility of AAF service as Sgt Pilot and age would make any reasonable service time as OR groundcrew before selection for pilot training an outside possibility.

In addition progress to Commission via AAF structure would have a more likely result in AAF appointment rather than Class A in the RAFO.

I did also consider the senario of pre war service in RAF then re-enlistment into AAF as OR but the AIR 78 card lacks the normal Class F marking. AFL also shows continuous service from 1936 to advent of war and posting to No.57 Sqn from Nov 1938.

All a bit contrived to link the 800420 to 70602 but possible that for admin/attestation he attended the local AAF unit at Hendon for short induction while waiting for Commission appointment and course commencement at FTS. If he undertook any prolonged on unit training it would have steered a career towards AAF.

Edit:
More AFL diving brings up posting as APO 16 Jan 1937 to No.8 FTS under instruction.

Ross

[paulmcmillan]

Ross

Thanks - It appears he was from St Albans, Herts area (actually Bricket Wood) so entirely feasible he could have been at 600 Sqn in Hendon especially as it is just a drive down A5 (Watling Road)

Paul

[BlenheimBuff]

Hello Paul,

This really is turning into a can of worms isn't it!!

The whole RAF service numbering system is a bit of a minefield. Thanks for coming up with this particular quirk of the system, which as you point out seems to suggest that Roi Saunders was a pre-war AAF flyer with 600 Sqn. This sqn would have been equipped with the Mk1F Blenheim immediately prior to the war, so would explain why P/O Saunders ended up flying Blenheims with 57 sqn.

Many thanks to Ross, Dave and yourself for moving my understanding of this chap forward.

Regards,

Ian Marchant

[BlenheimBuff]

Sorry, I hadn't read Ross's last entry before my previous reply. So it's not conclusive that Roi Saunders flew with 600 Sqn prior to his commission in the RAFVR? and his initial service number may just have been an administrative expedient?

If there's an ORB for 600 sqn perhaps that would yield some information.

Regards,

Ian