Luftwaffe losses in raids on Kursk

[Jack Sanders]

Hi!

I have been reading some Soviet sources on the history of their air defence forces and have come across some interesting information regarding the prelude to the "Zitadelle" offensive. There were two massed Luftwaffe daylight raids on Kursk, on May 22nd and June 2nd, with 424 bombers and 119 fighters partcipating in the latter raid. The Soviets claimed 65 aircraft shot down (9 by AAA) during the first raid and an incredible 145 (27 by AAA) during the second. 281 fighters of the 2nd and 16th air armies were scrambed against the Luftwaffe on June 2nd, as well as 105 fighters of the 101st air defence division. Their losses are said to have totalled 27 aircraft.
Does anyone have the German loss statistics for these two days? It seems that even if the VVS overclaimed by 3 or 4 to 1, this was a major success for them. Is this the case, or am I reading some good old Soviet propaganda (the sources are from the 1960s) ?

Jack

[Jack Sanders]

Having looked at Tony Wood's claim lists, it seems that there was indeed a major Luftwaffe effort over Kursk on the 2nd. 19 different staffeln claimed a total of 59 fighters in the Kursk area that day. Only 15 claims were made on May 22nd, so that may have been a much smaller effort, a fact that is not entirely clear from Soviet sources.
Does anyone have any information about Luftwaffe activity on these two days?

Jack

[RT]

Only 11 planes lost on 22.of may, above Orel-kursk area, all ju87 from only one unit STG1
On 2.june less than a dozen, share among KG1/KG4 nd ZG1

If you want details send me message cdts@cdts.fr

rt

[Jack Sanders]

Originally Posted by RT

Only 11 planes lost on 22.of may, above Orel-kursk area, all ju87 from only one unit STG1
On 2.june less than a dozen, share among KG1/KG4 nd ZG1

If you want details send me message cdts@cdts.fr

rt

Thank you very much! I've e-mailed you from jack_sanders_js@yahoo.co.uk .
The overclaiming on the 2nd is pretty incredible. Looks like a case of optimistic fighter pilots coupled with over-zealous propaganda.

Jack

[Christer Bergström]

It is true that both sides overclaimed heavily during those two air battles. However, following the last battle, the Germans refrained from attacking the marshalling yards at Kursk again. I got a very interesting account from the Stuka ace Friedrich Lang when I met him a couple of years ago and talked with him about that raid.

In my book "Kursk: The Air War", you will find a detailed list of every single German aircraft loss during those two air battles. It will be published by Ian Allan in 2008.

[Del Davis]

Christer
Would mind listing your current book projects? Is the Kursk book described above part of the BC/RS series or something else? On your website you say that this series is planned to contain 8 volumes and I have heard that you plan to redo BC/RS Volume 1. I know you are working on a Walter Schuck biography as well and you have also mentioned other biographies in other posts. Can you enlighten us?

[Jack Sanders]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

It is true that both sides overclaimed heavily during those two air battles. However, following the last battle, the Germans refrained from attacking the marshalling yards at Kursk again.

The German claims do, however, pale in comparison to the Soviet ones. As for the cessation of attacks on Kursk, after further reading I have been left with the impression that the Germans were too busy bombing other targets in June. Another factor, which I would be glad if you could clarify, is the extent of the damage to the marshalling yards at Kursk. Based on precedents from the same time period, such as the Saratov raids, my guess is that the yards were so badly damaged that there was no need for further attacks. After the middle of July the Luftwaffe was too busy trying to save the ground troops, so there is no reason to think that the losses suffered in May and June were prohibitive.
Thank you for information about your book, I will await it eagerly. Does it cover the Soviet raids on German airfields as well?

[John Beaman]

A VERY quick check of known losses on 2-June-43 on the Eastern Front indicates approx. 40 German combat types lost or damaged to all causes along the front. So, it would seem there was some overclaiming.

[Jack Sanders]

John, RT has already given the losses for the Orel-Kursk sector, rather than the whole front, so the Soviet overclaiming can be said to have been excessive.

Jack

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Jack Sanders

John, RT has already given the losses for the Orel-Kursk sector, rather than the whole front, so the Soviet overclaiming can be said to have been excessive.

Jack

Excuse me Jack. I was just trying to be helpful by pointing out that even 40 losses on the whole eastern front is very excessive compared to 145 claims in just one sector, so obviously there was gross overclaiming. RT's list of losses in the sector is not correct: there were more than Stukas lost in the sector.