Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?

[researcher111]

Rainer

Also MACR's are not a final tool for historical accuracy, including Romanian
Police , Red Cross etc. In due course of the time these reports and claims
proven as misleading . Best source of information are German Luftwaffe
archives in Freiburg i.B. place I visited numerous times, local Romanian
sources and the crew members themselves .

BR

Alex

[Theo Boiten]

Many thanks chaps for your elaborate replies -IV./NJG6 reported three B-24 Abschüsse on 5.4.44, all of which were officially anerkannt (confirmed) as full victories on 15 August 1944. The other two claims were (alas no locations known):


Ofw. Peter Tiedemann: 1 10./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 13.56
Oblt. Hans Meyer: 1 Stab IV./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 14.08


Cheers, Theo

[researcher111]

Here are some short episodes of Lt.Stenning's last moments and rest of those whom we mentioned above. Please note the episodes cite continous JG51 and ARR attacks folowed by claims rather NJG 6 . Lots of everybody saying something else. Theo you welcome on both posts but again I wouldn't worry too much about these Net records you will be consuming your time with misleading info

BR
Alex K

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Rainer

I'm aware of the limited accuracy of the lists Tony Wood published, but they give a good starting point for further research. I just wonder why Furchmann's claim is listed there as B-17 while Theo states that it was for a B-24.

The rest of the information is my own research based on primary USAAF sources. This of course means that the locations given are those mentioned in the MACR which can differ from the actual crash place of the aircraft itself - a bomber left by its crew could fly a considerable distance before crashing.

The crash places of 42-78199 and 42-52081 are confirmed by the Romanian Red Cross as Calinesti in their MACR. The only MACR I could not locate yet was the MACR for Currie's B-17, thanks to Alex we now know that the crew bailed out near Mirosi. The question is if there are Romanian sources that contain the actual crash places and possibly crash times of the listed aircraft.

Good morning !

Could it be possible, that different local times that day (15th AF = Italian time; German Reports + Romanian reports = Romanian time) confuse the report summaries evaluation of this day ?.

Was Italian time that day equal to Romanian time ?

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

[researcher111]

Theo

Historical errors examples.

Stenning crew was manned by 10 and not 8 crew members,according various books
was manned by 9 and 8 , according some Romanian sources all crew were held POW .

Check latest crew status by the crew .

Alex K

[udf_00]

Adding to the confusion :

Oblt. Hans Meyer: 1 Stab IV./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 14.08
...Consolidated "Liberator" am 4.4.44 14.08 Uhr...

The claimant for the bomber near Salcioara is also recorded as Karl Fleischmann.
12./NJG 6 was a romanian unit.

Count only the B-24s claimed by III./JG 77 on 4 & 5 APR 1944.

[Rainer]

Originally Posted by researcher111

Stenning crew was manned by 10 and not 8 crew members,according various books was manned by 9 and 8 , according some Romanian sources all crew were held POW .

According to MACR4080 the crew of 42-7720 was on 5 April 1944:
Pilot 1Lt Stenning, William C. O-672475 KIA (seriously injured in combat, failed to leave plane)
Co-Pilot 2Lt Robbins, William S. O-743285 POW
Navigator 1Lt Marioles, Peter S. O-801185 POW
Bombardier TSgt Blascke, Robert R. O-2043677 POW
Engineer/Top Turret Gunner SSgt Carroll, Wylie C. 14124042 KIA (failed to leave plane, body found near wreckage)
Ball Turret Gunner SSgt Graham, Robert 32337538 POW
Right Waist Gunner SSgt Bieman, Donald J. 19138322 KIA (seriously injured in combat, did not survive bailing out with a damaged chute)
Left Waist Gunner SSgt Bennett, James M. 15333299 POW
Radio Operator/Gunner TSgt Koenigseker, Aaron L. 15105702 POW
Tail Gunner SSgt Burge, Arthur P. 14104597 POW/DOW (seriously injured in combat, died of gangrene in a hospital at Bucharest on 5 July 1944)

[Theo Boiten]

I stand corrected: on re-checking the official OKL/RLM confirmed Abschuss listings, I noted that the 10./NJG6 claim at 13.56 hrs and the 11./NJG6 claim at 14.08 hrs indeed occurred on the 4th April 1944. Both claims were officially confirmed as full victories on 15 August 1944 -which leaves the question open as to which bomber losses could possibly be matched against these two confirmed Liberator victories on the 4th of April 1944.

And re. the right spelling of the Nachtjäger who claimed on 5 April 1944 -I also stand corrected (the microfilm entries of individual names are often hard to decipher is my only excuse): the name spells 'Fleischmann' and not 'Furchmann'. Fleischmann, who had previously served with 2./NJG3 and had achieved one confirmed night victory with this Staffel, was KIA on 24-25.12.44 at Langebach near Marienwald/Westerwald, shot down by 157 Sqn Mosquito MM676 (S/Ldr. J.G. Benson & F/Lt. L. Brandon)

Thanks UDF 00 for your pointers -you've not added to the confusion but made the issue more clear now!

Cheers, Theo

[Rainer]

@Horst Weber

The claim times made by the other Luftwaffe units on that day are according to the list of Tony Wood:
JG 51 claimed 7 B-24s from 1403 to 1431hrs
JG 77 claimed 13 (or 16?) B-24s from 1422 to 1500hrs
JG 301 claimed 4 B-24s from 1435 to 1505hrs and 1 B-17 at 1546hrs
JG 302 claimed 1 P-51 at 1455hrs
NJG 6 claimed 1 B-17 at 1527hrs

Does anyone know how many claims were made by the Romanian Air Force?

[udf_00]

http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=439
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=443
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=445
Info for the 4 April and the following day.