Hurricane captured at Derna 26.09.1941

[Gerry Bevan]

Hello Andrei

Just correcting a typing error in my post on the 14th April.

On the 29th Sept 1941 F/Lt Brown collected Hurricane W9353 from 103 M.U.

Best wishes

Gerry

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gerry

According to Air Britain No.2 PRU was formed 17.10.1940 at Heliopolis with Marylands. They had detachments both in Palestine and later Lebanon not to mention various places in the desert.

To me it rather looks like you are talking about the set up of one of these detachments (1.6.1941) in the desert, rather than the whole unit as such.

Thanks for quoting from the ORB for us.
Whatever force landed at Derna (if anything) on the 26th can't have been one of their Hurricanes.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrei Demjanko]

Gerry,

Many thanks for your very detailed and informative reply!

To sum it up:

There are several German and Italian reports of a force-landing of Hurricane on 26 September 1941

The aircraft of this type (Hurricane) could only be of 2 PRU. (And, thanks to information from ORB, provided by Gerry, we now know this could only be W9116)

The date F/Lt Brown was awarded the DFC is 26 September 1941

Against this we have ORB of 2 PRU which gives the date as 2 October (This date also mentioned in one Italian press release)

It is also interesting that new Hurricane was collected from 103 MU on 29 September (to replace the earlier loss of another one?)

Could it be that ORB of 2 PRU is not contemporary and reconstructed some time after the events? So the date when unit learned of F/Lt Brown's capture was recorded as the date of his loss? I know I'm on too thin ice now. But there are no other options for a loss on 26 September.

[Gerry Bevan]

Hi Stig

It was on a visit to the NA in 2010 whilst researching other units that I needed to look up some info on 2 PRU.

I discovered that I was given the "actual" ORB and not the usual micro-film, which was normal from this time onwards......

So I decided to focus on this unexpected opportunity & photographed the ORB myself.

Hopefully, I have managed to attach the first file to my post.

From this, you can read the introduction for 2 PRU.

I note that it eventually states that it was formed on the 17th March 1941.

Best wishes

Gerry

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Gerry

The Air Britain book mentions the Intelligence Photographic Flight and the date 3.3.1941 when their three Hurricanes were absorbed by the 2 PRU.

I can't explain their specific dates (either 17.10.1941 and 3.3.1941) but it seems unlikely to have been taken out of the blue, especially since the details were changed from the first edition where it was stated that the 2 PRU was formed on 3.3.1941 by re-naming the Intelligence Photographic Flight!

Some other document must then be the basis for these specific dates and also for giving details about the Marylands.

Your document mentions both October 1940 and March 1941 so we are on the right track...I guess....

Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andrei

The 2 PRU ORB is pretty much contemporary as you can see from Gerry's attachment.

I don't know what the Italians and Germans saw on the 26.9.1941 landing at Derna, but it is remarkable the German Panzer forces identified the aircraft as a Hurricane, which was better than most Luftwaffe pilots managed in the air.

What bothers me, if an Allied aircraft really landed at the date stated, is that no one really bothered to take note of a pilot gone missing and not returned.
That aircraft details went missing is not strange, but to have a pilot (or crew for that matter) going missing is something totally different. So if we don't bother about the actual aircraft, who was the individual that became POW? Seems odd that nothing seems to be known about anyone at that date.

Interestingly the Hurricane W9116 is listed by Air Britain as lost on 3.10.1941, that is the date Shores et All wants it in the first place. In fact Shores backdates this loss to the 2nd simply to fit Italian records. So if a 2 PRU Hurricane is the only option we have, W9116 at least seems to be ruled out as lost on the 26th.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrei Demjanko]

Stig,

It is not only Pz Gruppe identified the aircraft as Hurricane, but Regia Aeronautica pilots of 153° Gruppo CT, who were themselves based at Derna (See post #10 by Ludovico Slongo)

The ORB was complied in wartime, of course, but it is not contemporary. The example kindly provided by Gerry illustrates this very well. Under the date of 1 June we could see a brief history of the unit and its origins up to that point. It is stated that the unit was actually formed with effect from 17 March 1941, two and a half month before the first dated entry in ORB.

It seems that the person who complied the document did not have all the documents concerning the early history of the unit on hand. So first months of its existance he recorded in outline and then attempted to reconstruct chronology day by day.

You are quite right that there is no information of a pilot, who became POW on 26 September, if we presume he was not F/Lt Brown.

So I'm still convinced that the aircraft, which made force-landing at Derna on 26 September was W9116 flown by F/Lt Brown