Late-war Bf 109 question

[Skyraider3D]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

To make sure, I showed the veteran a picture of both types of canopy and he basically said it could just as well have been the other one. He saw only one piece flying away when the pilot jettisoned the canopy, so I think we can rule out any "anomalies" - the target had an Erla Haube afterall. Also he mentioned he was pretty sure there was no aerial.

The date was 9 February 1945, around noon, near Magdeburg, heading south towards Leipzig. Scenery was forest and farmland - rural.

Is it safe to say he was battling a K-4? Or did G-10/14s also get equipped with gunpods? I don't think I've ever seen any pictures of late-war 109s with gunpods, but I do know JG 26 extensively used them on their K-4s (20 mm gondolas to be precise) but not on their G-10s.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Skyraider3D

Thanks for the replies, guys!

Is it safe to say he was battling a K-4? Or did G-10/14s also get equipped with gunpods? I don't think I've ever seen any pictures of late-war 109s with gunpods, but I do know JG 26 extensively used them on their K-4s (20 mm gondolas to be precise) but not on their G-10s.

Well, let’s see: First, there’s no documented evidence that the K-4 ever flew with wing gun pods. The K-6 was supposed to have built-in wing guns (not pods), but there’s no evidence they flew operationally.

Skyraider: As for JG 26 what evidence do you have they flew with the K-4 with gunpods in February 1945? III./JG 26 flew K-4s in Dec. ’44 to mid-January ’45, but then in mid-January reequipped with the D-9. That means that all JG 26 units flew the D-9 in mid-Jan ’45 onward. If there were any K-4s in JG 26 from mid-January ’45 onward, they did not lose any—something hard to believe. The last K-4 loss for III./JG 26 (the only 109-equipped JG 26 unit at this point) is 14-Jan-45. In fact, their losses on 9-Feb-45 are none, either 109s or 190s. The first III./JG 26 loss (the previously 109 equipped unit) is 28-Jan-45 indicating this previously 109 unit was now operational with the D-9. While our records for late 1944 and 1945 are not complete, they are not THAT inaccurate.

As for the color photo on page 43 of Monogram’s C &M classic, this is not totally reliable. The KZ of this wreck were likely red, as stated, but they are very dark red/brown in the photo, indicating the colors in the photo might be off. Ergo, there’s brownish looking stuff in the C & M pattern where there really not might be any. WWII color photos, reproduced now are notoriously fickle. You just cannot rely on them for accuracy, especially in subtle browns, greens or grays. Some are accurate, most are not.

[Heuser]

You´re too fast for my reply, John...
@Skyraider: What are your sources about the "...extensivley..." using of gondola weapons on the K-4? O.K., even the late war versions of the Bf 109 could be equipped with gunpods, but I´ve never seen any picture of Messerschmitts with this Rüstsatz during the last months of WW 2...
Regards, Winter

[Yves Marino]

And what about the so called G-16?

[Heuser]

Hello Yves,
I´ve got no sources about really existing G-16...

Regards, Heuser

[Yves Marino]

Originally Posted by Heuser

I´ve got no sources about really existing G-16...

Neither do I - I wrote the "so called G16". But if there was some kind of G10 or G14 with gun-pods and different motor in the last days of the war, this is exactly what I mean.

[Skyraider3D]

The author of the Monogram Clopse-Up on the 109 K came back to me and confirmed that as far as his records go, indeed no K-6 reached the frontlines.


So the obvious question is... could one of the JG 300 Bf 109 G-10s have had gunpods fitted? If not, what unit did the aircraft come from that the 355th FG pilot shot down that day?


I did find a rather interesting shot of a Bf 109 G-10 in very dark camouflage:
http://www.bf-109.de/pics-bf109g/bf1...024-swfoto.jpg
The picture was taken in Bavaria and thus not directly relevant to the search, but still very interesting.
But again, no gunpods

[Skyraider3D]

John, I never said JG 26 used K-4s in February 1945 I merely gave them as an example of gunpod use on the K-4. I am well aware the whole of JG 26 was flying Doras by then and therefore the 109 we're looking for can't be a JG 26 example. The information about the gunpods I got from Donald Caldwell's books. The introduction of the K-4 is described (Nov. '44). Let me quote directly from the book:

The 30 mm cannon were extremely potent weapons, but had a tendency to jam, and apparently all of the K-4s supplied to the Third Grupe were also equipped with the 20 mm guns in the despised underwing tubs. Uffz. Georg Genth's regular aircraft was a G-10, but on occasion he flew a K-4. He preferred the G-10 as a dogfighter, as the K-4's bulky armament sharply reduced its maneuverability.

I've never heard of gunpod use on the G-10/14 and I don't think any G-6 was ever painted in brown/green camo.
But I have never seen gunpod on any late war 109s myself...

Heuser, III/JG 26 used their K-4s quite a lot and if they all have gunpods that means they must have been used extensively.
The books I refer to are this one (p.292) and this one (p.379).


I had never heard of the K-6 variant with built-in guns. The veteran described smoke coming out of the wings when the 109 fired directly at him (and thus missed as the 109 pilot didn't use enough deflection). He didn't mention gunpods and when I asked about it he merely said the smoke was going over the wings. I'll show him a picture of the gunpods and see what he says.
I'm aware memory can be flakey after 60+ years, but he is 100% sure the 109 fired from its wings as he could see the gun smoke. One would definitely remember being shot at, so we can safely assume it had wing guns.


I really appreciate your help, guys, and hopefully we can find out what unit the 109 belonged to.

The USAAF unit involved was the 357th FS/355th FG by the way.

[Skyraider3D]

For what it's worth, I found the following quote in Monogram's Close-Up book on the Bf 109 K:

Early in 1944 the Messerschmitt design staff had projected other versions of the Bf 109K including the Bf 109 K-6 interceptor. Powered by the DB 605 DCM, and driving a metal VDM 9/12159A prop, this version entered production in January 1945. However, it is very doubtful if many were completed. This model had armament increased by two wing-mounted MK 108's buried within the wings. In spite of the devastating punch three 30 mm cannons afforded, pilots viewed the increase in wing weight with disdain. Most, in fact, removed these cannons from the wings as soon as they reached the front.

In more than one way it suggests K-6s were operational. I will contact the author and ask about his source.




Also, I came across this picture in a Polish book about Bodenplatte. According to the caption it shows a G-10 of I/JG 3. Now I don't know how they can tell that from the picture, but it does seem to have the enlarged air intake of the later 109s. The snow would suggest Dec '44/Jan '45 and the wooden tail on the 109 in the background supports this time frame. And, the reason for me posting it, it has wing gunpods.



Also... on the right wing just inside of the gunpod... could that be a wheel door?
It also appears to have an aerial behind the cockpit though...




I found the following 109 G/K operators after extensive digging on www.ww2.dk and checked their airbases compared to the Magdeburg/Leipzig area.

III/JG 1 - Stolp-Reitz - not near
I/JG 3 - Stettin-Altdamm - not near
II/JG 3 - Alperstedt - possible
III/JG 3 - Stettin-Altdamm - not near
I/JG 4 - Guben - not near
III/JG 4 - Drewitz - which one? there is a Drewitz very near Magdeburg
IV/JG 4 - Drewitz - which one? there is a Drewitz very near Magdeburg
II/JG 5 - Herdla - near
III/JG 5 - Gossen/Herdla - near
III/JG 6 - Sorau - not near
II/JG 11 - Strausberg - not near
I/JG 27 - Rheine - not near
II/JG 27 - Rheine-Hopsten - not near
III/JG 27 - Hesepe - not near
IV/JG 27 - Achmer - not near
I/JG 51 - Danzig-Langfuhr - not near
II/JG 51 - Veszprem/Raab - not near
III/JG 51 - Insterburg - not near
IV/JG 51 - Danzig-Langfuhr - not near
I/JG 52 - Breslau-Schöngarten - not near
II/JG 52 - Veszprem - not near
III/JG 52 - Weidenguth - ? (can't find)
I/JG 53 - Veszprem - not near
II/JG 53 - Malmsheim/Huchenfeld - not near
III/JG 53 - Kirrlach - not near
I/JG 300 - Borkheide - not near
III/JG 300 - Jüterbog-Waldlager - possible
IV/JG 300 - Reinsdorf (near Berlin) - not near
IV/JG 301 - Gardelegen - possible

I/NJG 11 - Echterdingen - not near
II/NJG 11 - Jüterbog-Waldlager - possible but not likely, although 5/NJG 11 was based at Köthen and thus near
III/NJG 11 - Bonn-Hangelar - not near


Given the dark colour of the 109 ("charcoal brown") it is perhaps possible that it was a machine of 5/NJG 11? Are any daytime losses known for this unit on 9 February 1945?

[Richard Goyat]

The combat in which the 355th FG, the 479th FG and the 2nd Scouting Force were involved on 9 February 1945 in the Magdeburg area was against JG 300 (I., II. and III. Gruppen) and JG 301 (at least its II. Gruppe).

While II./JG 300 and II./JG 301 were equipped with Fw 190s (including some Fw 190 D-9s for II./JG 301), I. and III./JG 300 operated various version of Bf 109. It appears however that on this date, most — if not all — Bf 109s lost by JG 300 were G-10 and G-10/R6 versions. Until now, we haven’t seen a single JG 300 Messerschmitt of late 1944 and 1945 equipped with underwing gun pods.

Richard Goyat