Late-war Bf 109 question

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi. The location for the loss of Brenner was given as unbekannt, and I haven't got the NVM, so the circumstances are unknown to me.

I guess the people behind the JG 300-series books should have more on this.

Regards,
Andreas

[petewenman]

Guys hi

Following this thread with interest. I don't have any info to add, but I love
the reserach aspect.

If nothing else Ronnie's conversations with Bill Lyons really illustrate the difference between combat and a passing interest.

Bill shot down a plane, but has very little recollection of the detail of the event (and who can blame him he was busy staying alive).

I would suspect that most kill identification came from the gun camera stills rather than the pilots debrief.

Pete

[Skyraider3D]

Pete, you would be surprised the kind of details Bill Lyons remembers. I think the case is that many pilots simply distinguished no more than two piston engined fighters. Anything with a radial engine was a Focke-Wulf and anything with an inline engine was a Messerschmitt
On 18 March 1945 the 359th FG found out the hard way that this way of identification was rather limited when they shot down a number of Yak-9s ("Me 109s") and La-5FNs ("Fw 190s"). But that's a different story altogether


Andreas, thanks. I assume you don't have the Kennzeichen for this second Dora then?
Below if a list of all Fw 190 claims in the area for that day. Could you possibly counter this list with all Fw 190 losses (both A and D). It would be good to see how these claims match up.
In bold the claims which are close to Bill Lyon's location.

355th FG/354th FS - Capt J E Duffy - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Berlin
355th FG/357th FS - Lt E P Ludeke - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - Brandenburg (Ludeke was Lyon's flight leader)
479th FG/434th FS - Capt G W Gleason - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SE of Magdeburg (he also got an Me 109)
479th FG/434th FS - Lt R D Creighton - 1x Fw 190 probable - SE of Magdeburg (he also destroyed an Me 109)
479th FG/435th FS - Maj H H Jordan - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - W of Brandenburg
479th FG/435th FS - Cap N R Benoit - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Brandenburg

The Fw 190 losses we have thusfar:

Fw 190 D-9 - 6/JG 301 - Obfw Max Sulzgruber - 210905 - Red 5 - Grieben (= N of Magdeburg)
Fw 190 D-9 - II/JG 301 - Helmut Brenner (KIA) - 210909 or 211909 - Kennzeichen unknown - location unknown
Fw 190 A-9 - 8/JG 301 - Lt Karl-Heinz Müller (KIA) - 207202 - Blue 5 - location unknown



This is premature, I know, but if we go by the assumption that JG 301 fought in the same area (roughly north of Magdeburg) and two of their number were shot down by the 435th FS then the third could be Lyon's. Brenner's Dora is the most likely possibility, as Lyons victim was KIA. Ludeke (Lyon's flight leader) Fw 190 was scored further east, while all 434th FS claims seem to be in the Belzig area where lots of JG 300 Me 109s crashed. To be sure, Ludeke did not participate in Lyon's air battle but apparently took part in a bigger scrap further to the east.


Thanks again all, both on-board and off-board. I feel we might just be able to crack this egg

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I have taken some screenshots from my internet site for the losses registered for this date:

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/1945.02.09-01.gif

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/1945.02.09-02.gif

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/1945.02.09-03.gif

You should probably download the images and view them in something other than your browser if you do not have a reasonable screen resolution (I use 1600x1200)

Regards,
Andreas

[Skyraider3D]

Quick one as I just came home from an airshow
In a bookstall I saw the new JaPo book about Dora camouflage. It said Brenner was MIA in 210909 "Red 9" of 6/JG 301.
Funnily enough it also had another record for 210909 for a 15% crashlanding after this date.
211909 was shot down by flak over Cottbus, also after this date.

[drgondog]

Guys - while it is possible that in the course of a manuevering dogfight a 109 could turn into a 190, it isn't as likely as tossing off a sixty year memory.

I read Ludeke's witness of the engagement, and presumably combat film was available where the low versus high horizontal stabilizer would settle the question, but assuming it wasn't Ludeke Id'd the ship as a 109. Fro 100 yards or greater a K would look like a G and few pilots mistook a 190 for a 109..

Skyraider - I would go with your original investigation of a 109. From my perspective it would be easier to mis identify the location of 20mm guns in the wing than a perceived birdcage canopy difference between a G and a K. Just my opinion.

I will talk to Bill next week. You want me to bring this up?

Regards,

Bill

PS - Thanks to all for helping me id JG300 and 310 as logical encounter w/355th.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

It is not unlikely that the 210909 was listed as missing with Brenner on the 9th February, (this loss record is dated 3rd March), but in reality was not destroyed, and then was damaged again on a later date.

That is why I would like for someone that have worked on the JG 301 to come up with a NVM for Brenner. If it does not exist, this is a definitive hint towards him not being wounded or killed, but rather that he returned to his unit.

Regards,
Andreas

[Skyraider3D]

Bill, I have already sent Bill Lyons an e-mail asking him if it would be possible his enemy was a Fw 190 D.

Originally Posted by drgondog

few pilots mistook a 190 for a 109

Hmm I wouldn't say that. I think for many pilots there were two types of Luftwaffe single-engine fighters: Focke-Wulfs (with radial engine) and Messerschmitts (with in-line engine). It's easy to see how that could lead to confusion.
Stranger though: at some point in 1945 a group of Mistels were shot down by Mustang pilots. The Mistels were Bf 109 F/Ju 88 A and Fw 190 A/Ju 88 A combinations. One of the pilots initially thought it was a He 111 with V1! Also, all combat reports state Fw 190 claims and no mention is made of the Bf 109s. In fact the guncamera very clearly shows Bf 109s.
Additionally the 359th FG started claiming Doras as early as February 1944, while in reality Doras didn't enter service until December that year! Also on 18 March '45 they mistook Yaks for Messerschmitts ("in-line") and La-5FNs for Focke-Wulfs ("radial") with fatal consequences for the Soviets.
I've also seen plenty of guncam footage from the Pacific theatre where Oscars are identified as Zeros and Lilys as Helens. In short, identification wasn't terribly reliable in many cases.
As for the "birdcage" canopy thing, the old style Dora canopy has pretty sharp corners giving the false illusion of a birdcage from certain angles. Also it has a frame going over the top. It's not nearly as much as a bubble as that of the P-51D or late P-47s, and I think this is what Bill Lyons is comparing it to.

Personally I'd happily go with the 109 claim, but the facts seem to argue this and even Bill Lyons memory is not consistent. He specifically stated he remembered clearly the gunsmoke coming out of the wings, about 1/5th from the wingroot. "Out of the wings" - not out of gunpods either. This does match a Dora but not any 109.

If only we could find the guncam footage, which is probably long vanished, and even then we can't always be too sure. Some years ago there was a massive debate over guncam footage of a Ta 152 H. In the end it turned out to be a Stuka of all things!!!



Andreas, I wonder, how could a pilot be MIA but the aircraft still survive? In most MIA cases the aircraft blew up in mid-air with pilot and all, or crashed in a lake or soft soil. John Manrho could tell you more about this as in his Bodenplatte book he writes of countless cases where wrecks and pilots weren't found until the 1980s or 90s - or are still MIA. They crashed at high speed and simply disappeared in the soft soil. I think if Brenner went MIA it's fairly safe to say, so did his aircraft (if this is 210909 is a different story of course).
O, the JaPo book does mention the aircraft as "destroyed" by the way, but it also gave as location "East Front" and if I remember correctly it said it was on a fighter-bomber sortie, which is rather odd for a Dora at 25,000 ft

Let's hope one of the JG 301 buffs on the forum will read this and have an explanation

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I am stating this as there are numerous cases in the loss records and from pilot recollections where the pilot performed for example a belly landing. If this was in (at the time) enemy held territory, or the pilot did not know where he was, the usual tactic was to get your sidearm and documents out and run for cover. Often you would then be listed as missing in action (as there was no trace of you as far as the unit was concerned).

One of the very common reasons for Bf 109's not to return to base was engine damage, a situation from which it was entirely possible to survive with only minimal damages to the aircraft in question.

Very common in the RVT as far as I can remember were so-called 'aussenlandungen' I believe it was called, where a pilot had to land on a field or airstrip not currently occupied by his unit (or any unit...). (The fights could be at 10k meters or more, and you would get confused from time to time I am sure). As long as the pilot did not return he would be reported as missing in action, and this would be recorded in the loss records sent to the higher headquarters.

When the pilot in question returned to his unit a week later, in the back of a Kübelwagen, the unit would fill out a correction and send it to the GenQu6Abt, which in turn would correct the loss record.

When considering all loss records from 1945 where the term Vermisst is used, one should take the total state of disarray into account, and never state with certainty that the person in question did in fact disappear for ever (he could of course do so... some into the Legion Etrangere for example...). Remember that the records from April 2nd through to end of hostilities probably burned in the RLM building in Berlin.

Of course, pilots stated as MIA to this date are probably dead, from one reason or the other (some of old age), and I have in fact been in contact with people that are officially still on the MIA list.

It is against this backdrop I stated the above.

A couple of examples:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=102733

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107193

In the first the aircraft was destroyed, in the second it was returned intact. If the person reading the loss records would not consider the corrections, the second aircraft would be listed as destroyed.

And then there are all kinds of damage percentages inbetween. How many seemingly intact german fighters have been photographed after a belly landing?

Regards,
Andreas

[Skyraider3D]

Thanks for clearing that up Andreas