Late-war Bf 109 question

[Skyraider3D]

Bill, I have already sent Bill Lyons an e-mail asking him if it would be possible his enemy was a Fw 190 D.

Originally Posted by drgondog

few pilots mistook a 190 for a 109

Hmm I wouldn't say that. I think for many pilots there were two types of Luftwaffe single-engine fighters: Focke-Wulfs (with radial engine) and Messerschmitts (with in-line engine). It's easy to see how that could lead to confusion.
Stranger though: at some point in 1945 a group of Mistels were shot down by Mustang pilots. The Mistels were Bf 109 F/Ju 88 A and Fw 190 A/Ju 88 A combinations. One of the pilots initially thought it was a He 111 with V1! Also, all combat reports state Fw 190 claims and no mention is made of the Bf 109s. In fact the guncamera very clearly shows Bf 109s.
Additionally the 359th FG started claiming Doras as early as February 1944, while in reality Doras didn't enter service until December that year! Also on 18 March '45 they mistook Yaks for Messerschmitts ("in-line") and La-5FNs for Focke-Wulfs ("radial") with fatal consequences for the Soviets.
I've also seen plenty of guncam footage from the Pacific theatre where Oscars are identified as Zeros and Lilys as Helens. In short, identification wasn't terribly reliable in many cases.
As for the "birdcage" canopy thing, the old style Dora canopy has pretty sharp corners giving the false illusion of a birdcage from certain angles. Also it has a frame going over the top. It's not nearly as much as a bubble as that of the P-51D or late P-47s, and I think this is what Bill Lyons is comparing it to.

Personally I'd happily go with the 109 claim, but the facts seem to argue this and even Bill Lyons memory is not consistent. He specifically stated he remembered clearly the gunsmoke coming out of the wings, about 1/5th from the wingroot. "Out of the wings" - not out of gunpods either. This does match a Dora but not any 109.

If only we could find the guncam footage, which is probably long vanished, and even then we can't always be too sure. Some years ago there was a massive debate over guncam footage of a Ta 152 H. In the end it turned out to be a Stuka of all things!!!



Andreas, I wonder, how could a pilot be MIA but the aircraft still survive? In most MIA cases the aircraft blew up in mid-air with pilot and all, or crashed in a lake or soft soil. John Manrho could tell you more about this as in his Bodenplatte book he writes of countless cases where wrecks and pilots weren't found until the 1980s or 90s - or are still MIA. They crashed at high speed and simply disappeared in the soft soil. I think if Brenner went MIA it's fairly safe to say, so did his aircraft (if this is 210909 is a different story of course).
O, the JaPo book does mention the aircraft as "destroyed" by the way, but it also gave as location "East Front" and if I remember correctly it said it was on a fighter-bomber sortie, which is rather odd for a Dora at 25,000 ft

Let's hope one of the JG 301 buffs on the forum will read this and have an explanation