Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Interesting what means the record "Ab 22.45 Uhr eigene Torpedo-Flugzeuge an russ.Verband".

Is it means that planes were with torpedoes or simply from Torpedo Staffel?

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

They could have also found out that Kleemann was the Staffel commander, put 2 and 2 together and got 5

Warm regards,
Andrey

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Interesting what means the record "Ab 22.45 Uhr eigene Torpedo-Flugzeuge an russ.Verband".

That should mean that the word greifen - "attack" was left out so save space, so the text means "at 22.45 our torpedo aircraft attacked a Russian squadron". However, one can also speculate that the staff clerk knew that a torpedo-bomber unit was operational that night, but did not know that it was not carrying torpedoes on the specific mission in question

Warm regards,

Paul

[Nick Beale]

Yes but the internet version has more info than my Second, revised, expanded edition 1992

Thanks, that's interesting to know. It's years since I last borrowed the book from the library.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Yes but the internet version has more info than my Second, revised, expanded edition 1992

Thanks, that's interesting to know. It's years since I last borrowed the book from the library.

Yuha and Nick, it only takes one click to solve the mystery The text of the digital edition dates from 2007, see http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/historie.htm I believe parts of it have been updated since.

Warm regards,

Paul

[Nick Beale]

I hope some forum members who have seen relevant ULTRA material will comment here. I would pin some hope on Signatur RL 10/65 at Freiburg. Has anyone seen that?

Not a year I've ever looked at but anyone who wants to try can view the material via the National Archives website. DEFE3/185, German Naval messages deciphered 5–10 August 1942, and /186 (10–16 August) might be a good place to start.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

DEFE3/185, German Naval messages deciphered 5–10 August 1942, and /186 (10–16 August) might be a good place to start.

Thank you for the hint, Nick! I have now skim-read quite a bit of DEFE 3/185 and found not a hint that any messages from the Black Sea were intercepted. I wonder whether there is a card index for these files. The files would have been almost useless for wartime operations without indexing, so do you think there is an index somewhere at Kew?

Does Schmidt indicate that II./KG 26 flew more bombing that torpedo-bomber missions?

Warm regards,

Paul

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Thank you for the hint, Nick! I have now skim-read quite a bit of DEFE 3/185 and found not a hint that any messages from the Black Sea were intercepted. I wonder whether there is a card index for these files. The files would have been almost useless for wartime operations without indexing, so do you think there is an index somewhere at Kew?

Does Schmidt indicate that II./KG 26 flew more bombing that torpedo-bomber missions?

Warm regards,

Paul

They didn't start a specific Russian Front naval message series until October 1943 (with the ZTPGR prefix) unfortunately' so all you can do is read a few thousand signals, allowing for the possibility that the decrypt occurred after some delay.

A card index? In your dreams! There was one at Bletchley Park but it may not have survived. Alternatively it may be among the 3,000,000 pages of material that the Bletchley Park Museum is digitising, with no word of an end date. Meanwhile, why wouldn't a person want to read thousands of decrypts?

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

They didn't start a specific Russian Front naval message series until October 1943 (with the ZTPGR prefix) unfortunately

A card index? In your dreams! There was one at Bletchley Park but it may not have survived. Alternatively it may be among the 3,000,000 pages of material that the Bletchley Park Museum is digitising

Most of the important events in the Black Sea were long past by October 1943, but ZTPGR may prove useful anyway, thank you.

It takes 6 years to fight a catastrophic World War, but 71 years and counting to find one of the card indexes created during the conflict! Given just how much information there is in the various decrypts, it is a great shame that the card index has either been lost or is yet to be rediscovered.

Warm regards,

Paul

[Rainer]

Here is the translated KTB SKL entry for the Black Sea on 3 August 1942:
"Long-range air reconnaissance reports that on the afternoon of 2 Aug., a force of 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, and 4 escort vessels, proceeding at high speed on a westerly course, was observed 20 miles west -northwest of Tuapse. According to continuous reports from shadowing planes,' the force was steering a northwesterly to northerly course, and at 1945 it was 50 miles south of Anapa. By evaluation of photographs the larger vessels have been tentatively identified as a heavy cruiser of the KIROV class and the flotilla leader KHARKOV. From 2245 on, our torpedo planes followed the force whose position at 2351 was reported as 10 miles southwest of Cape Opuk on a 20° course. After midnight, Italian submarine chasers attacked the force some 20 miles south of Feodosiya. According to further sighting reports, at 0455 the 2 vessels were located with 7 escort vessels on a 110° course south-southwest of Anapa and at 0650 with 15 PT boats on a 150° course southwest of Novorossisk. Since, in addition to the force which was sighted, the Main Naval Direction Finding Station at Constanta located the cruiser KRASNY KRIM in the same area at the same time, it is not impossible that several groups participated in the thrust towards the Crimean coast. Group South has requested the Air Commander, South to check on this possibility."

The actions of the three Italian MAS boats that were at sea to cover a convoy of landing barges is also described:
"Of the three Italian submarine chasers protecting the break-through, MAS-573 stopped in her patrol position 5 miles south of Feodosiya as a result of engine failure. At 2400, she sighted an enemy force of 1 three-funnel cruiser and 1 flotilla leader and launched 2 torpedoes against the cruiser at a distance of barely 100 m. One of the torpedoes hit the target. At 0130, the MAS-568, which had been notified in the meantime, attacked the cruiser with 2 torpedoes, hitting her with both. The Italians are certain that the burning ship sank. The 2 subchasers were then pursued by the flotilla leader but reached the base undamaged. During the subsequent search on the morning of 3 Aug., subchaser MAS-569 found wreckage and equipment at the place where the torpedo attack had occurred. It is not yet quite clear what vessel was attacked and probably sunk, since the force located on the morning of 3 Aug. was located later in its original strength. During the same night, around midnight, Ivan-Baba was under continuous air attack and a simultaneous attack from the sea. The attack from the sea may be taken as another proof that other enemy naval forces were operating off the Crimean coast."

Entry from 6 August 1942 concerning the night of 2/3 August:
"Concerning the sinking of a Russian vessel by an Italian submarine chaser on the night of 2 Aug., the Air Commander, South reports in accord with the Italian subchaser flotilla command that, after checking all the data, he now shares the belief that 2 separate enemy forces were involved on the night of the operation and that the Italian submarine chasers sank the cruiser KRASFY KRIM. This opinion is based on findings of the radio intelligence
service."

There is also an entry on 13 August 1942 concerning the night of 2/3 August:
"Since according to interpretation of photographs taken on 9 Aug. and according to radio intelligence, the cruiser KRASNY KRIM is evidently undamaged, the vessel sunk by Italian subchasers on 3 Aug. was probably a three-funnel destroyer. This assumption on the part of the Naval Staff is recorded in the War Diary, 3 Aug."

Here is what can be found in the KTB Admiral Schwarzes Meer about this action:
2 August 1942: "Radio intelligence reports: Increasing fleet movements and continued lively U-boat activity. In the sea area of the middle east coast a large unit - possibly cruiser - the flotilla leader CHARKOV and two destroyers at sea. After detection by the M.P.H.S. this force proceeded northwards in the evening. After midnight the cruiser KRASNY KRIM was also in the middle of the east coast, also the same guard ships, minesweepers and motor torpedo boats active in the northeast of the Black Sea as the day before.
3 August 1942: At 0003 on 3 Aug. aircraft employed as shadowers by Air Commander, South report that they observed gunfire from the discovered force about 27 nm southeast of Feodosiya. Situation dispatches indicate that the coast in the above area has been shelled from sea. After the bombardment was completed the force withdraw at high speed and was spotted leaving on a main couse of 120° 30 nm west of Novorossiysk at 0455 and lying at anchor in the roads of Tuapse at 1957. Apparently the ships kept radio silence during the whole operation as the M.P.H.S. reported waning activity."

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Rainer

Here is the translated KTB SKL entry for the Black Sea on 3 August 1942:

Hello Rainer,

Thank you, this provides a surprising look into the limited capacities of German intelligence in the area, despite the availability of relatively numerous reconnaisance aircraft. Since I have been interested in this action for a while, I made some notes about the whereabouts of the four cruisers of the Black Sea Fleet at this time. As you will see, no cruiser apart from the Molotov was involved:

Krasnyi Krym (Красный Крым – Red Crimea) was in Batumi until 5 August, when it sailed to assist in the evacuation of Novorossiysk

Krasnyi Kavkaz (Красный Кавказ – Red Caucasus) was finishing repairs in Poti after being damaged by air attack (possibly by Stukas) on 4 January. It sailed for sea trials on 17 August.

Voroshilov (Ворошилов) had just finished repairs in Tuapse on 24 July, after suffering a turbine failure on 20 May during its last sortie to Sevastopol. There is no firm information about its location on 3 August, but it was probably not at sea.

For reference, Molotov (Молотов) spent a year in repair in Poti after the torpedo hit discussed here. The stern of the incomplete cruiser Frunze (Фрунзе) was fitted to the Molotov, which entered service again on 31 July 1943.

Warm regards,

Paul