3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

You will find the listing for Collective grave K.6 (Sittard War Cemetery), in the Grave Registration Report of 228613 Lt William Leslie CARR DLI, BA - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...LLIAM%20LESLIE

It won't tell you anything that we don't already know!

Col.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello

Yes, we had that document already but thank you nevertheless

Best regards, Marcel

[Luc Vervoort]

Hello,


Based on the CWGC document we can presume that the 3 unknown airmen were not buried at another location/cemetery earlier.


As they are buried as unknown they are mentioned on the Runnymede Memorial. After making a download of all mentioned on the Runnymede Memorial it is possible to sort the results per date and then per Squadron. If we presume that the 3 unknown airmen were killed on the same date, were of the same squadron and there are 3 unknown of one aircraft the number of possibilities are reduced. Has this already been tried ?



Looking forward to receive your comments !


Best regards from Belgium
Met vriendelijke groeten vanuit België


Luc

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Have done the Runnymede Memorial list for 1/1/45.
This was what I found.
1/2-1-45
75 Sqdn - Lancaster III - ME321 - AA-N
W/C. R.J.Newton DFC MiD - RNZAF
P/O. R.J.Atchison - 429286 - RNZAF
F/Sgt. J.S.Hoskins - 652139 - RAFVR
Sgt. H. Sansome - 1583772 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. A. Lee - 1622893 - RAFVR
Sgt. V.J.Clark - 1811271 - RAFVR
Sgt. M. Brennan - 1596812 RAFVR - Jonkerbos War Cemetery.
Sgt. L.J.Cooke - 3051677 - RAFVR
Crashed near the Dutch town of Maastricht (BCL vol 6 page 26 ).

31/12/44-1/1/45
83 Sqdn - Lancaster III - PB134 - OL-N
F/O. G.W.Duggan - 418362 - RAAF
F/Sgt G.J.A.Groom - 1284873 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. S.J.S.Maynard - 1801363 - RAFVR - Moss Civil Cemetery, Norway
F/Sgt. S. Brockbank - 1543556 - RAFVR
W/O. F.J. Poole, DFM - 655599 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. R.Kear - 1314473 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. H.T.Little - 1893906 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. H. Jones -2218793 - RAFVR
Believed crashed in Oslo Fjord between Horten and Moss( BCL vol 5 page 526).

31/12/44-1/1/45
630 Sqdn - Lancaster I - PB894 - LE-
W/O.E.A.Thomas - 132619 - RAFVR
Sgt. D.D.Jones - 1404691- RAFVR
F/Sgt. E. Leese - 1579463 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. J.H.Jones - 1316189 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. W.H.McD. Marshall - 1564879 - RAFVR
Sgt. B.J.Phillips - 1897422 - RAFVR
Sgt. G.R.Boden - 1695305 - RAFVR
Lost without trace ( BCL vol 5 page 526 ).

Hope this a help

I won't list them here but have checked -
31/12/44 eighteen airmen, aircraft were - Hurricane LF369; Mosquito FB.VI - HP922; Lancaster III - PB134; Stirling IV- LK283 and LJ914;
30/12/44 eighteen airmen, aircraft were - Typhoon In - JR332; Tempest - EJ522; Beaufighter - NV179; Lancaster III - PB525; Lancaster I - PD325;
29/12/44 - None.
28/12/44 One airman, aircraft was Beaufighter TF.X - NV419.

Alex

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Dear Luc and Alex,

Thank you both for your Smart suggestions, I did not know that it was possible to get the complete data from the Runnymede panels, perfect !

Luc
I also think that it would be logical to assume that these 3 come from 1 loss, but as I have discovered, logic is not always the best advisor in searches like these. Therefore, this is option 1. Option 2 is that grave K6 contains the mortal remains of 3 different losses but statistically this is not likely. Option 3 could be, that unidentified mortal remains (of three victims) from different losses in the area around Sittard were buried in one grave.

Alex
Nice job and thank you for assembling these interesting facts which I will try to compare with the 2nd TAF volumes of Chris Shores and Chris Thomas. Just a moment ago I imported the CSV file with names from the Runnymede Panels into Excel but I don't see there double names. Will check the ordered 'target for tonight' of Lancaster PB894. If this bomber went to Norway too, their loss will not have occurred in the region Sittard I am afraid.

I still believe that a request to the CWGC what they possibly could tell about grave 6K, might solve the mystery. They MUST know something...

I will keep you informed. Oh, by the way: Lancaster ME431 came down near Eygelshoven which is pretty northeast of Maastricht in the direction of Kerkrade, and thus nearer to Sittard than Maastricht.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

My assumption would be as you earlier suggested, three airmen from the same crew/aircraft.
That would be three crew of PB894.

ME321 was on the night of 1st/2nd so if buried on the 1st this loss was after the burial.

While as you say PB134 was lost over Norway.

That leaves only PB894 for them to be found and buried on the 1st.

Re ME431 What date do you have ?

ME431 - 1661 CU Jan45; 279 Sqn Aug 45; 5 MU; Scrap Jan 48.

Alex

[RSwank]

PB894 went down in the North Sea off Denmark according to this link:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=159515

Lancaster PB894 lost North Sea, 50 km. North West Hanstholm, Denmark, 31 Dec 1944.

"Missing on Gardening mission. Took off from RAF East Kirby at 1620 hrs for operations over the Kattegat."
"Intercepted at 2.800 mtrs. and shot down by Hptm. Eduard Schröder (1) of 3./NJG3. The aircraft crashed at 21.00 hrs into the North Sea some 50 km. North West of Hanstholm. "


For ME321: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=49319
It says that plane went down at: Vilt, gemeente Berg en Terblijt

[Alex Smart]

Hello Roland,
Thanks for the update re PB894, this now is also no longer a possibility it seems.
So back to the start, 3 unknown airmen in a group grave.
Alex

[RodM]

Regarding 75 Squadron Lancaster ME321.

1. Crashed at map grid square K.642528 (in an orchard near Vilt, at the rear of the farm of Mr J. Moessen. beside the road between Berg and Valkenburg). The Lancaster impacted with great force and all that was left on the surface were small fragments and a deep crater.

2. American personnel removed portions of human remains on the day following the crash, for burial. The British could find no evidence that a burial was made by the Americans at Margraten or Henri Chapelle American cemeteries.

3. Locals stated that some ramains were still at the crash site after the Americans left, although all the locals found to hand over to the British investigators were the dogtags of W/Op Sgt Clark, a small medallion, and a partly burnt photo. By the time the British investigators examined the scene of the crash, the crater left from the explosion had been filled in.

4. The British investigators visited the British Military Cemetery at Ophoven (i.e. Sittard) and viewed grave K.6 marked "3 UNKNOWN BRITISH AIRMEN". The Cemetery Registery, compiled by the Red Cross, recorded the date of death or date of burial as "1.1.45." (the British found the records to be ambiguous over date of death versus date of burial). Checks were made throughout the Sittard area to establish where the remains in K.6 came from, without success. The British investigators thought the remains possibly came from the crash site of ME321, but had no proof.

5. Grave K.6 at Sittard was exhumed, but yielded no evidence to positively identify the remains. Without other evidence to prove the remains came from the crash at Vilt, the Air Ministry decided the grave was to remain as "3 Unknown airmen."

6. A decision was made by the Air Ministry not to exhume the crash site crater at Vilt to look for further human remains, because the Americans had used the large crash site crater as a refuse dump, later filling it with 14 truck-loads of earth, before smoothing out the ground. The Air Ministry decided that digging operations would be useless.

7. The Lancaster was identified by serial numbers on control surface fragments found on the ground by the Americans (the American unit that initially reported the crash to RAF No. 85 Group was "4CATC"). Regarding human remains and salvage, the American signal, made on 5 January, states "(D) believed all killed - small portions wreckage. (E) still in crater. (F) not known guns A1B. No. (H) aircraft exploded on impact completely disintergrated. Engines and propellers buried in crater Cat E2 Burnt. (j) No. 2A 3 BRU Pass to Army salvage."

Cheers

Rod

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello guys,

Thank you all for the support, it encourages me to think all existing info over again. If one grave can contain mortal remains of 3 RAF airmen, it seems obvious that the CWGC should KNOW that the parts originate from 3 different persons and that they belonged to the RAF. Perhaps we should put it otherwise: the CWGC knows from other research where these mortal remains comes from, but they were not able to identify these parts to specific air crew members and decided to bury them in a collective grave at Sittard War Cemetary.

Therefore I suggest that we postpone further speculations until a request to the CWGC results in new information or definite answers. As far I can see now, there is no loss which can be linked to these 3 unknown.

I will keep you informed ! Best regards,

Marcel