JGr.176 27th september 1939

[Marius]

Peter,
sorry, Rhinow was slightly injured, of course. Peter or anybody else, can you confirm with a German document the date of the "collision" as 29.9. ?

The damage of 5% is much questionable, because you will not find any other 5% damage for that period. Apparently 5% damages were not reported to the OKL. Furthermore the Bf 109 force landed with hits from an enemy fighter! The 50% damage is much more likely (maybe "0" had gone lost somewhere on the way to Göring...).

Best wishes,
Marius

[Marius]

Hello again,
my first post was written (mostly) from my mind. Now I can give you a concrete source.

Chris Shores wrote in "Fledgling Eagles" (Grub Street, 1991, page 72) about the air fighting between GC II/4 and JGr.176 on the 27.9. According to this well researched source Baptizet, de la Chapelle & Tesseraud claimed 3 victories. The first as probable over Hornbach - the Bf 109D force/crash landed near Bad Homburg with 50% damage (also Chris Shores is not believing the 5% story, maybe he had a better document?). Then the French formation followed the Messerschmitts to the Lahr area, where 2 confirmed Bf 109 were claimed. Both Messerschmitts indeed went down not far from Lahr (Rhinow at Triberg & Köpke at Unterharmersbach).

I think the date conclusion made by Chris Shores is right (27.9., not the 29.9.). The area of the air combat (Lahr) agrees well with the area of both Messerschmitt losses.
I can confirm that the OKL loss list contains many such date errors (it is not an error actually but a delayed report going to the higher staff). For example we can take the 29.9. again. There is a loss of a Do 17F from 1.(F)/124 (40% damage). But this accident happened one day earlier, on the 28.9.

I hope this will help and make air fighting researching much more productive.

Best wishes,
Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Marius,

The only source I have that reports the collision involving RHINOW & KOEPKE is the QGM Returns for 29.9.1940 compiled on 1.10 .1940.

Of course, I am aware of what Chris Shores said, & the theory that these losses occurred two days earlier in combat with GC II/4 is compelling, it may yet be shown to be true, but without some (or any) better evidence than you are able to quote it must remain just that - a seductive theory & nothing more.

I accept without question that the loss lists were compiled by human beings & therefore subject to error, but prefer not to tinker with the historical record without good reason. Of itself, a neat theory, however logical & rational, is never reason enough. But what the hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story ?

[Marius]

Peter,
the Western Front is not interesting me as much as Poland. I was not digging so deeply regarding the losses in the West. But maybe you can look for more details of the death pilots at the archives at Aachen or in Berlin (WaSt).

But I am sure that some of the forum visitors could show us a document about the date of death of Uffz.Köpke. Maybe a photo of the grave or a page in a paper from that time (an obituary) or something like that.

On the other hand, if me and Shores should be wrong and the 29.9. right, what French aircraft in this area were attacked by both pilots on that particular day? I read something in the Batailles Aeriennes series and in other sources. So far no single author wrote about the type (or unit) of the attacked aircraft. And everybody is repeating the (GQM) date 29.9. without deeper research (?).

The GQM loss list for September 1939 (without any details on 1th and 4th) contains appr. 50 such date "errors"! I will ask around for Köpke`s death. Maybe we will find the hard evidence.

Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Thank you Marius, that would be helpful & much appreciated.