Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?

[musec04]

Hello,


Apparently not. There is a newspaper photo here of the Aviana 10:


https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...rplanes.31308/


It would be interesting to see a photo of the machine marked as F-AROQ at the time of seizure by the German armed forces.


Regards,


Clint

[jschreiber]

Hello

Here is the story of the plane, thanks to the members of the French Aeroforums and some personal research.

The aircraft was designed by a bunch of enthusiasts of the "Centre d'Aviation Populaire de la Région Nazairienne (Saint-Nazaire)" (therefore the CAPRN), as a Salmson 9 cylinders engineered 2 seater for beginners training. The State approved the design, and paid the drawings.

But the plane had to be manufactured, and, for political reasons, locally. An adhoc company, with the adequate structure, was created, as subsidiary of the obscure "Société Coopérative Aéronautique" (Paris) (therefore the SCA with no relation with the former SCA - the Société Commerciale Aéronautique). A shop was easily found in some disused part of the naval yard, and a engineer of the nearby SNCASO plant was put as boss.

After manufacturing, the plane was tested in the full scale wind tunnel (the results are preserved), but the aircraft remainded a single prototyp.

It can be reasonably assumed that the plane flew only locally, for beginners training, at the La Baule Escoublac airfield, a few miles from Saint-Nazaire, who the photography was taken, under the wing of a Navy LeO 258 converted as land plane.

It seems also that the F-AROR registration could be belonging to registrations allocated to the French State, which leads probably to a dead end...

Regards

Jean

[musec04]

Hello Jean,


Thanks for posting the question on aeroforums and also for your own investigations. Very helpful.


I have a couple of questions due to my lack of familiarity with french civil aviation:


1.What is the register Véritas referred to by Franck Roumy?


2. With regard to your comments about the use of the machine for initial training.Does this mean you are inclined to believe that the machine was used by the military as a trainer,based on Lucien's info on the Leo 258 or do you rather believe that it was civilian operated.? I guess the tricolore might point to military?


Best Regards,


Clint



Regards,


Clint

[jschreiber]

Hello Clint

I will try to explain in few words. In France, everybody knows the "Registre Veritas" but when it comes to his precise definition it's another story !

the "Bureau Veritas" (a private company), like the former british Air Registration Board, maintains a list of all the aircraft in airworthy state, according to his inspections, done under delegation of the civilian aviation authorities. This list is the "Registre Veritas", and an aircraft not present on the list cannot, for example, be insured. However, since the French State, for his own planes, certifies his planes by himself, they are not present on the "Registre Veritas".

Starting in 1939, almost all civilian flying schools were "impressed" or "militarized" (usually by renaming and putting a senior NCO in charge, the instructors and mechanics remaining civilians). So we can assume that this plane was used for the initial traning of future military pilots.

Regards

Jean

[Stig Jarlevik]

Jean

A really, really excellent research from your part.
In spite of an almost non existent French language knowledge on my part, I checked the Aeroforums site and what is bothering to me is the time line.

The wind tunnel experiments done by ONERA is listed as taken place in 1937
The formation of the company, made by Farman according to one participant, in 1938.
The mention in Aerophile issue of Feb 1938 with a very rudimentary drawing and an even more odd "photo" (in reality a drawing as well).

Somehow the resumé produced by you here, implies (well, read make me feel) this aircraft did not fly until 1939 or so. Don't ask me to guess when....

As you can see this simply does not add up.
Whoever came up with the idea (design) of this aircraft must have had some official backing.
The ONERA tests must, in my opinion, have been done with a scale model (I doubt a real mock-up)
Someone "leaked" details to Aerophile but the aircraft was built much later.

The most interesting thing about this aircraft is rather why it was developed/built in the first place and what the designers hoped they would achieve.
I am not saying it was a "useless" aircraft, but I really cannot see where it could find its "raison d'être". There is nothing in the design which is obviously superior to any previous design around.

Aircraft seems quite undamaged after capture. Wonder if any photo will ever appear of it in German markings? Doubtful....

Cheers
Stig

[jschreiber]

Hello Stig

First, a drawing of the plane from mid - 1937 :



At this date, according to local newspapers, technical drawings were about complete, a wind tunnel model had been built, and the plane itself was "under way" (understand some wood has been cut...). So the wind tunnel tests were done with a model.

Then, why this plane ? As you say rightfully, not for technical reasons, despite the fact that qualified designers from Loire-Nieuport (SNCAO at this date) were leading the design team. The answer has to be searched on the political side.

At this date (1936-1937), the French government came from the left wing (Front Populaire), and the Air minister (Pierre Cot) had introduced the Aviation Populaire (people's aviation) with two purposes : allowing the working class to fly light planes (and not only the wealthy class), and give the opportunity to young people to train as pilots, proficient enough for advanced training later by the Armée de l'Air. Both objectives were only partially achieved, for a lot of reasons.

So, if the "proletarians" will learn how to fly, if the training plane has proletarian origins it would be perfect... And since the design team of the CAPRN 10 came from a "Aviation Populaire" group, full circle was closed.

But, in April 1938 the Front Populaire government exited, and such rethorics were not longer needed. The planes for the Aviation Populaire were purchased mainly by Salmson and Caudron (who had not the needed industrial capacity at this time) and the CAPRN 10 plane was only built in two exemplars : one to be destroyed on the static tests, and our F-AROR.

Regards

Jean

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Jean

The drawing is the same as published in Aerophile Feb 1938

I had the Force Populaire in mind but never came up with the two reasons you give here.
Waste of both money and time, but I guess they never saw it that way.

Nothing against socialism.....as long as the brain remains connected.....

Cheers
Stig