Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[FalkeEins]

Ignoring the bombers that really inflict the damage on ground forces, tanks etc - like Hartmann. Not a war-winning approach. Hartmann only made around 15 Il-2 claims..far fewer than other Eastern Front aces..

[Russell]

Other claims over Hungary
No details as to type or time, but this is what the Luftflotte 4 Tagesmeldung contained in the 6th Army records (found at Information from German Documents in Russia 500
Inventory 12472 - Army Nos. 1-10, 1937 - 1945 Case 382. Documents of the operational department of the headquarters of the 6th Army: the magazine ...
Case 382. Documents of the operations department of the headquarters of the 6th Army: military journal, Case A, vol. 29: daily reports for 05. - 12/31/1944 - reports on the situation of the operational and reconnaissance units of the Fretter-Pico army group)

summarize as what the claims were on the following days

23 Dec 44
Luftlage Frame Number 430/579
Sorties 287 of which 146 FW 190 ground attack, 26 tank attack, 6 Me 210, 91 fighter, 18 recce
Success 1 tank, 8Lkw, 36 besp Fahrzeuge,
8 aircraft shot down, 2 damaged
6 aircraft lost.
Comment
II/JG 52 a/c
Yak-9 1048
III/SG 10 IL-2 1230, 1233, 1455
3 short. Probably all II JG 52.

24 Dec 44
Luftlage 447/579
Sorties not listed
Success 14 tanks 10 Lkw, 9 besp. Fahrzeuge
8 aircraft shot down
Special Mentions. On 23 December 1944 achieved Hptm Hartmann his 328th aerial victory, OberstLtn Rudel his 2400 sortie.
Nachmeldung Luftlage 471/579
Sorties 179 ground attack, 12 tank attack, 4 Panzerschreck, 142 fighter 16 destroyer, 20 recce
Success Add 17 tanks 100 vehicles destroyed
Add 19 aircraft shot down, plus 2 with out witnesses and 7 damaged. Hptm Hartmann his 331 aerial victory. Possible total of 19 aircraft shot down
Comment Total claims, either 19 or 27 aircraft shot down, it is unclear whether the later report included the previous 8 claims in the total, or the late reports claims were in addition to the previous 8 claims.
II/JG 52 IL-2 1425
a/c 329th, 330th, 331st by Hptm Hartmann
I/JG 53 Il-2 0908, 1103, 1358, 1401, 1405, 1405,
La-5 0926, 0932, 1410
III/SG 10 IL-2 1105

5 or 13 short, also dependent on whether Barkhorn made claims on the 24th or 25th.

25 Dec 44
Luftlage 472/579
Sorties 164 assault, 99 fighter, 18 recce.
Success 2 T-34, 76Lkw destroyed
23 aircraft shot down with witnesses, 2 without witnesses, 2 damaged.
Lost 1 fighter and 2 a/c missing.
Special mention Hptm Hartmann 5 victories, 336 victory. Major Barkhorn 4 victories, 289 victory.
Comment
II/JG 52 Yak-9 1208, 1215
a/c 9 by Hartmann/Barkhorn (unless Barkhorns includes 2 supposedly on the 24th.)
I/JG 53 IL-2 1155, 1433
La-5 1346, 1347, 1433, 1435

I/SG 10 R-5 1220
IL-2 1510
Leaves 4 or 6 short.
Nothing for the rest of the year presumably bad weather hindered operations.

Regarding the 4th Feb 45

The source for Hartman's claim is Erich Somavilla who was his NO 2 on the mission. His flight log may indicate the time of the action. I have a vague memory it has been sold on E Bay

Otherwise, all I have is Tubel of I/JG 53 made two claims, a IL-2 and a La 5 at 1645 and 1650, Ewald claimed two La-5 and Elias Kuhlein of 5/JG 51 a Yak 9. What else II/JG 51 may have claimed is unknown to me. I have not looked for any Tagesmeldung for 1945 as yet.

Generally for Nov Dec 44 the daily totals mention are more than the known Luftwaffe claims, what I have yet to do is see if the difference is what the Hungarians were up to.

Regards

Russell

[Nick Hector]

More excellent work,

Is anything known about the famous VE Day victory claim?

[Kapper]

Russell,

Thankyou for posting this.

As I suggested in my previous post, we need to firm up on the claims data that are not in the Claim's Microfilms. The claims for II./JG 52 in the claims microfilm end on 21 Dec 1944 yet has been supplemented with several claims for Hartmann (& Barkhorn) in November (see my previous post). I believe these additional claims occurred after 21 Dec 1944 and this seems to support this. I also still believe the additional Il-2 claims are not correct - it was not Hartmann's style

Regards,

Craig...

[HGabor]

Thanks Russell, very interesting. Just briefly, this is what we have info for - here without the details, as it would be waaaaay too long... I'd consider everything else as overclaims for these days:

December 23, 1944:
17 VA:

2 La-5F - 1 fighter, 1 lost orientation, couldn't find base, crashlanded (no fuel?)
1 Yak-9D - fighter (Bf 109)
1 Yak-9M - fighter (Bf 109)
4 IL-2m3 - 4 to flak

5 VA:

6 IL-2m3, plus 1 seriously damaged, repaired (131 GvShAP, S/N: 19355)
1 La-5F - engine problem, repaired after crashlanding
1 Yak-1B (331 IAD, wear and tear, scrapped. S/N: 41177)

(In 5 VA list: 2 IL-2 combat losses to fighters)


December 24, 1944:
17 VA:

12 IL-2m3 - At least 5 to flak, 1 to accident, rest probably to fighters
5 La-5F - 2 accidents, rest fighters?
2 La-5FN - 1 scrapped after dogfight,
1 Yak-9D - 1 MIA
1 Yak-1B - 1 MIA

5 VA:

8 IL-2m3 - at least 3 to flak, 1 engine problem, rest to fighters?
3 Yak-1B - MIA and fighter

Contradicting 5 VA list: 1 Yak-9 MIA, 2 IL-2 to fighters, 2 IL-2 to flak.

VVS HQ:
1 Pe-2 (48 Гв.ОРАП, S/N: 19/296) - fighter, crashlanded

Night of December 24/25, 1944:

17 VA:
2 IL-2m3 (989 ShAP) in air-raid on ground: S/N: 10687 and 18744102 without crews.

December 25, 1944:

17 VA:

3 La-5 - 1 accident, 2 to fighters
4 Yak-1B - 3 to fighters, 1 MIA
2 Yak-9D - MIA
1 Yak-9T - fighter
3 Yak-9M - fighter
3 IL-2m3 - 1 flak, 1 fighter, 1 accident
1 Po-2 biplane (282 ОАПС, S/N: 14821) - fighter (Oblt. Norbert Schmitt (3./SG 10 as 'R-5')

5 VA:

1 Yak-1B - ground collision
1 Yak-9M - ground collision
1 IL-2m3 - training flight accident

No combat loss.
Gabor

[HGabor]

Russell, just some 17 VA losses to fighters on December 24, 1944:

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 10270, lost at 11:07 local, after attacking German tanks in the Söréd-Bodajk-Mór area went missing, not seen again by their comrades. Pilot, Ml.lt. Nikolai Ivanovich Punkevich MIA, gunner, Vladimir Alexandrovich Zimin KIA. ~MATCHING III./SG.10 IL-2 claim at 11:05, - if German time is local!

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, 2nd Sq., IL-2m3, S/N: 11350, ‘23’, lost at 11:03 local, in Bodajk-Mór area. Combat with Bf 109. Gunner, Semen Mihailovich Voronin killed, pilot, Ml.Lt. Anatolii Nikolaevich Denisenko head-injured, crashlanded at Szekszárd en route home. MATCHING I./JG.53 IL-2 claim at 11:03 - 100%!!!!, - if German time is local.

17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 1889801, fell at Bodajk-NE, 3 km at 8:30 local, from 600 m. Group of 20 IL-2s, plane burned. Hit by Bf 109. Pilot, 3rd Sq. commander, Nikita Nikolaevich Dyakonov (HSU!!!) and gunner, Alexandr Pavlovich Pogrebnikov were KIA. Confusing story, - some say they crashlanded and burned back at Szabadszállás airbase, buried there, etc.

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 11368, lost at Fehérvárcsurgó-W, between 16:05-16:20 local. Attacked by fighters over the target area of Bodajk-Mór. Never seen again. Pilot, Genadii Vasilevich Valuev and gunner, Yurii Ivanovich Kasitsin were MIA.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39210807 was hit by fighter near Bicske at 13:25 (11:25 local), crashlanded back at the Kiskunlacháza airbase. Frame written off, engine handed over for repair, pilot, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Semenovich Bordyugov was injured.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39214036, lost while supporting their troops at the city of Székesfehérvár (in German: Stuhlweissenburg) At 13:25 (11:25 local), on their way, 8 La-5, led by Yakubovskii in combat with fighters (Bf 109s?) and Ju 87 Stukas near Bicske. Pilot, Lt. Anatolii Alexandrovich Lyubimov was MIA, probably downed by Bf 109.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 3810413, or 39214355, or 41210113. At 15:20 (13:20 local) 4 La-5, led by Volodin covering 8 IL-2 at 600 m over Zali??? Combat with a pair of Bf 109s. Pilot, Nikolai Stepanovich Lyadov was MIA.

Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

Hartmann's 352nd:

352. 8.5.1945 8:30-9:20 Yak-9 - OVERCLAIM - Stab I./JG 52 Brünn area: at 4000 m

Eric Hartmann's probably most symbolic, 352nd victory claim on May 8, 1945 was a soviet Yak-9 fighter in the Brünn (Brno) area at 4000 m. This area was taken by the 2nd Ukrainian Front, covered by their 5th Air Army. Checking all air activity of the 3 GvIAK (fighter command of the 5 VA: 6, 13, 14 GvIADs) we can conclude, that this claim was an overclaim.

The 3 GvIAK reported neither dogfights, nor losses on May 8, 1945. The only event was a brief encounter of recce. planes and 2 Bf 109s in the Znojmo (Brünn-SW) area. But no dogfight, no losses reported. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but Yak-3 fighter, S/N: 45(292)35 of 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. was repaired after mission due to radiator damage. But 85 GvIAP report clearly states that they had no combat losses in the entire month of May, 1945, plus Yak-3 No.4529235 was repaired in only 40 minutes at the base.

2nd Ukr. Front, 5 VA (90 GvShAP) lost only 3 IL-2s this day (S/N: 9884, 12854, 12888)

4th Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 565 ShAP lost 2 IL-2 (S/N: 9816, 10529), 996 ShAP 1 IL-2 (S/N: 18845111), 571 ShAP 3 new IL-10s (S/N: 1892604, 1890604, 1893203) over Czech. (Not all combat losses.)

Gabor

[Franek Grabowski]

Craig
I do not recall any of the airmen, Galland, Hartmann, Rudel and others claiming that their log books were confiscated. All claimed that they were robbed or that the logs were stolen. If confiscated, then there should be a reference to such actions anyway, in the Allied records. I do not think anyone cared about such documents, however. Neither man claimed to destroy their logs prior to the capture, either.
If robbed, I would really expect even a single log to surface. I am not sure if any did, and certainly not a one belonging to a famous pilot.

[Kapper]

Gabor,

I do have in my notes 2 claims for Boston's for II./JG52 on this date at Nikovice and Jezkovice (both reportedly near Brno) - unfortunately no names and stupid me forgot to put the reference as to where I got this information from.

Regards,

Craig...

[HGabor]

Thanks Craig, appreciate it...
Gabor