Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

[Steve Coates]

Larry - Thanks for this post which was posted almost contemporaneously with my last post. Thanks for the reminder about the Potsdam fire damage.

[Franek Grabowski]

Larry
A few years ago badly deteriorated microfilms with intelligence reports of Armia Krajowa were scanned and deciphered, so I guess a smilar attempt with BAMA microfilms is possible. The question is, if anyone is interested in trying that way.
As to loss reports, there are several possible reasons, including the package with 1944 reports was mishandled or lost in transport. The question is, if the well known set originates from one source or is it a compilation of reports coming from various bodies. Also, if they were kept separated as they are, or were they mixed with other documents, and sorted only after the war. I mean that if a package of 1944 losses was lost in transport, then there possibly should be gaps in other files. For example I do not see monthly unit reports for 1941.

[edwest2]

Larry -

My goal this year is to revisit a few important libraries for various things. The '80s and '90s were my years of studying various military related publications for a variety of reasons.

Best,
Ed

[Steve Coates]

In a bid to try and keep this thread on topic, can I please once again ask if anyone out there has anything substantive which casts illumination on this point for the benefit of the understanding of all.

A friend has sent me a further AHB minute d/d 31/10/46 sourced from AIR 2/7771 which in line with the other AHB note I referenced at the beginning of this thread again confirms that at that point in time the AHB held the losses up to the end of 1943.

The 1945 documentation presumably made its way to them subsequently but still not a single concrete reference to the the capture of the 1944 losses has surfaced.

[Steve Coates]

Thinking further about things, it does very much seem as if the losses were captured intact to end 1943. Looking at the documentation it does all appear to be part of the same distribution set,although it's not always entirely obvious when looking at the copies. The 1945 losses appear to come from a different distribution set and reference back to the ADI(K) Captured German Document lists in AIR 40/1182 confirm five different references to captured 1945 losses - 140/74, 143/76, 151/33, 152/54 and 153/82 - and as confirmed in first post not a single reference to 1944 losses. The lists themselves aren't dated but it would seem these date to late 1945. I should also add that that these are all annotated as having been sent to A.I.12 from whence I assume they made their way to AHB.

[Franek Grabowski]

So this is a clear indication (no proof), no 1944 losses were captured.

[Steve Coates]

Correct as things stand. Certainly I've not been able to trace a single shred of evidence. I can't categorically state they were not captured of course but there are no indicators that they were which is why I'm hoping someone else might have something to share of a documentary nature.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am afraid that such a direct evidence does not exist. I think that the information on origin of existing lists is most interesting at the moment, as well as the place of capture of particular files. I gues there should be some reports prepared by the units finding them.

[ArtieBob]

IMHO, this thread has been flawed from the beginning, primarily be cause the wrong question was asked. The 1944 loss lists have been
sort of a "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe researchers for many years. If there was anything close to a real lead as to their current existence or
location, I am certain more than one of this sites participants would have been immediately following up on that lead. This may well have
already happened and there is a good chance you would not know. If you watch how this site works there are many participants who
share information freely, for example Matti, who is so generous with his material. There are others who simply say a particular item
is incorrect, but will not share either the correct information or source. I don't need to list any names , if you follow TOCH closely, you
know who they are. If one of those found the loss list, the rest of us would almost certtainly not know.

So in my humble opinion, the real question that could be answered by some of the site participants is; Are there document collections
that exist, that have not been well researched? A subsidiary question is identifying the why and how of a collection's provenance, which
might indicate whether the type of document you are searching for would have a reasonable probability of being included. For example,
much of the captured Luftwaffe material that came to the US had been sellected for its generic content, i.e.Wright Field-technical data,
USSBS-production and bomb damage, CIOS-technical, organizational, etc. Military operational material (i.e KTB, loss data, etc. was
of little value to these groups and if there are snippets of operational documents , they were probably there by accident. So, where
should one look? In the postwar years, USAF did studies of Luftwaffe operations in Germany (Karlsruhe) with ex-Luftwaffe personnel
participating, this resulted in a series of studies which can be found without too much effort. What I do not believe has really been studied
is the source material used for these studies. I believe some of that was microfilmed, but has not been available to researchers. Another
potential source may be University document collections, there are some with large amounts of WW II material.

There are probably not any large collections of original Luftwaffe documents remaining in the USA, as most was either returned to Germany
or destroyed by the early 1960s. There are some original documents in several locations, but the one I have handled were mostly technical
and the dregs that somehow missed the return to Germany process.

When researching material at the USNASM, the archivists pointed me to the Navy micofilms from the Paris clearing house, 152 rolls with no
indexing. I went frame by frame through this material and prepared a rough finding aid for mostly technical data. IIRC, there was another
unindexed microfilm collection (at the moment, I can't remember if it had a name). I did some preliminary sample scans through that
material and it seemed to be more of an operational nature and I believe there was even a small item of loss list material found. I was
dissapointed because it was a duplicate of a time period coverd in the IWM microfilms, although if my memory is correct, it did appear
to be made from a different copy than IWM.

If you are serious, there are some opportunities for finding material that has not been widely circulated. Work smart, ASK THE RIGHT
QUESTIONS, use archivists, in many cases, not only are they helpful, but have useful knowledge you might not expect. But if you are
serious, understand the commitment real research takes. Even with finding aids and assistance, researching a fairly narrow subject took
years, thousands of miles of travel, considerable financial investment, and staring at well over a milliom frames of often poor image quality
material, most of which was not what I was interested in. I started in the 1950s and am still, at 82, working on my projects, although at
this point, I do not do so much traveling, relying on helpful contacts in many countries, some of whom may be reading this.

Best Regards,
Artie Bob

[Steve Coates]

I take a different view but don't have a problem with yours. Personally speaking, I don't think it was the wrong question to ask given various rumours which have circulated as to the possible existence of these losses. The best way to counter rumour is with facts and evidence. I suspected it might be a long shot but I have at least dug into records to try and come up with answers and have at least been able to put something new on the table. The lack of anything of additional substance probably confirms that very little effort has been expended in this direction.

I suspect I am the only person who has reviewed the ADI(K) Captured German Document lists which contain references to stacks of documents which I would love to be able to read but which I strongly suspect have long since been destroyed.

In terms of surviving German German documents not restituted to Germany, Duxford is of course sitting on a huge stash although this is pretty much all of a technical nature, be it FD, GDC or HEC. It is for people to get to these places and to review this material.

I do owe you and the dear departed Richard Eger my thanks for your efforts in producing and sharing a finding aid to the US Navy / ADI(K) microfilms. I have ordered and digitised quite a number of these and have been very pleasantly surprised by the contents of a number of these reels, containing as they do documents which were almost certainly destroyed shortly after filming. The NASM holds some very interesting microfilm holdings. I’m attaching a note I received from the NASM giving outline details of some of these holdings.