Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

[edwest2]

Again, not to waste anyone's time, but a few more things. I have a listing of the various US and British intelligence organizations that scoured, quite literally, all German occupied territories. This includes information about the little known, British T-Force and the American Counter-Intelligence Corps. There is published evidence of a high level of cooperation among the various teams. And there is evidence of files being later dumped in various states of disorder, or unindexed, at various locations in the US, and of duplicate microfilms being made. A substantial portion of T-Force related documents are still classified and there is no detailed history of the CIC in print. According to one source, a 3,000 page history of CIC activity during the war exists but has not been digitized and is only available for viewing in person.

I think an open or closed site that looks into this question further may be in order. This should start with a list that contains the identities of the various intelligence groups that were active during, and after the war in collecting physical documents, and producing microfilms. This should be followed by queries to the more obscure groups or, more likely, their successors, and identifying the lesser known archives and document repositories. Otherwise, this may be a problem addressed by a few as time passes and as finances allow, and with duplication of effort unless a list of leads is first created. And I tip my hat to all who have made the effort. If that is not done, more work by individuals will continue but a final answer will not have anything like a deadline.

- The following is additional material that can be ignored if desired. While reading the book T-Force by Sean Langdon, I came across information regarding the relative freedom of movement, and secrecy, surrounding T-Force operations on the continent. The fine strainer was used to insure that every usable drop of intelligence was extracted. Scientists were put in uniform and even given rank during this time period. Various photo books had been compiled showing target sites and persons of interest. Sometimes, target scientists had been detained by other military units, and were released to T-Force and its American counterpart. The CIC helped as well.

However, there were two incidents that stood out to me. One was where a lorry at an unidentified location had been loaded with documents, also unidentified, and then driven off by men wearing British uniforms but obviously unknown to T-Force. There is no further explanation, and no mention of giving chase. Another incident involves a British factory owner of some reputation showing up at a site secured by T-Force. How he managed to get through is not explained. The officer asked what he wanted and he appeared to know the site housed a machine for the making of garments, and which was something superior to what was available to him. He asked for it to be crated up and sent on to his company. The officer in charge pointed out that this was a military operation and sent him off. Within a day or two of filing a complaint about this man, he received an order to have the machinery crated up and sent to the company as previously requested, care of the Ministry of Supply.

Best,
Ed

[Jim P.]

Nothing to add really, but I have to say that this is one of the more interesting and enlightening discussions that I've seen on the site in a long while.

And while probably generally known I'll mention them anyway, there are two fiche sets available from German archives with fragmentary losses for Nov/Dec-1944.

Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1170
Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/766

And the Schulen losses are more or less complete through to Aug/Sep-44. The last set I've seen is BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/780, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw. I should also note, though outside the scope of this discussion, for most of the 41-43 time frame there are two sets of fiche for Schulen losses, and they're not identical. Different handwritten notes, missing or illegible pages from one set are included in the other, etc. A painful memory.......

[Steve Coates]

Thanks.

If anyone is interested in sight of the various bits and pieces I've referenced in this thread, most of which exceed the upload size limits for the board, I've put them up for download via WeTransfer. This link will will only be live for seven days.

https://we.tl/t-mx0QTp8Ddp

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

Thanks.

If anyone is interested in sight of the various bits and pieces I've referenced in this thread, most of which exceed the upload size limits for the board, I've put them up for download via WeTransfer. This link will will only be live for seven days.

https://we.tl/t-mx0QTp8Ddp

Thanks very much Steve !

[edNorth]

The Lumber from K-2 will soon appear on eBay and reach sky-high amounts.
Likely to be taken with grain of Salt.

But on serious note, Thanks!
-Ed

[Steve Coates]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I also put out an enquiry to the AHB. They have now kindly responded and confirmed that amongst their holdings of listings of captured documents which were sent to the Americans, Canadians and various other agencies, there is not a single mention of the 1944 losses.

In the absence of alternative evidence, it would seem that the 1944 losses were never captured which pretty much closes out this thread.

[John Vasco]

If I may add something to this thread.

Whereas the Quartermaster returns for 1944 have still not been found, there is another resource that could provide a lot of information. However, the caveat is that nowadays it might be almost impossible to see the things, never mind getting the information from them.

That resource is the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen. In 1940, a lot did not give any details of aircraft type flown, fuselage code, W. Nr.. However, as the months progressed into years, that information was included in them. Being able to obtain a full set of them for SKG 210/ZG 1 enabled me to compile the loss/damage tables for my book 'Sting of the Luftwaffe' fairly accurately.

Over the decades, the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) became more and more guarded about the contents of these loss returns, and as far as I know, they will now only divulge information to close relatives.

What WOULD be brilliant would be if the WASt were to put together a voluntary team to go through the 1944 NVM and provided the information covering unit, date, aircraft type, W. Nr., fuselage code, crew (ranks and fate) in a simple format. I'm pretty sure that information is there at that source, but bringing it out in the manner I suggest is, I think, never going to happen...

[Larry deZeng]

...............fortunately, we have Matti Salonen who has so generously and graciously stepped in to fill the 1944 gap.

L.

[Steve Coates]

The NVMs represent a partial solution, albeit a decent percentage of the missing losses. The good news is that since responsibility for WASt was passed from the Berlin authorities to the BA in January 2019, there has been a relaxation in the interpretation of Datenschutz. Access is slowly opening up but it does seem to occur in increments. I have also heard from a contact that WAST (now known as the BA-PA - Abteilung Personenbezogene Auskünfte) will start a process of scanning the NVMs but accessibility is at the moment unclear. Ideally, within the next few years it will be possible to see genuine progress.

[aquarya]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

The NVMs represent a partial solution, albeit a decent percentage of the missing losses. The good news is that since responsibility for WASt was passed from the Berlin authorities to the BA in January 2019, there has been a relaxation in the interpretation of Datenschutz. Access is slowly opening up but it does seem to occur in increments. I have also heard from a contact that WAST (now known as the BA-PA - Abteilung Personenbezogene Auskünfte) will start a process of scanning the NVMs but accessibility is at the moment unclear. Ideally, within the next few years it will be possible to see genuine progress.

I was lucky to be able to visit the WASt reading room early this year, bringing a WWII veteran to view his files, but also files necessary to my research on topics other than his. It took about six months to be able to set up the visit, the process was slow and took much polite persistence. The archivists were kind and attentive while we were there. However, not all files were brought for viewing, even though they fell well outside of Datenschutz timeframes and/or involved the veteran himself, and getting copies of the files we viewed became tangled quickly along not having a system in place to accept payment yet. Some progress, but this is definitely a resource that clearly would have much to offer if access were granted in a manner similar to Freiburg or other Bundesarchive.