I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Yes, I mean the first claim you mention. That is the only claim of a Danish aircraft at the time of the german occupation on 9 April 1940.

For further info on the airwar over Denmark, I would refer to http://www.flensted.eu.com/

Mikkel

[Franek Grabowski]

Eugene or Evgeniy?
Just a word of caution with the early claims of ZG1. Documents were lost and it is not possible to verify the data. For example, both Polish losses on 5 September could have been due to collision but there are losses on 4 September that may possibly be attributed to ZG1.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Evgeniy is more correct But never mind

2 Marius & Franek Grabowski- Thanks for info about Polish claims!

When its clear, I'am now more interested in 1940 claims of Gruppe.

For example, claims over Holland, claims over Dunkirk (i know, Tratt had 3 there - any more?)...

2 Mikkel Plannthin

For further info on the airwar over Denmark, I would refer to http://www.flensted.eu.com/

I found interesting moment on this site:
From memoryes of Wolfgang Falck - . Turning toward the northwest, I head for Aalborg where my unit should be waiting. On the way, I see one of my Bf 110's that has force-landed in a meadow. Banking around, I can see the pilot standing on the wing surrounded by a mob of Danish soldiers- "A bad situation! What do I do?". I decided to take a chance and land, as I taxi over to the downed aircraft, there is no overt hostility from the Danish troops. The pilot explains that he was hit by ground fire and had been treated very well by the Danes who were under the command of a young captain to whom he introduces me. The pilot has already been in touch with Aalborg, which was in our hands after a paratroop drop of only a platoon. Aaiborg was already sending a replacement engine. I thanked the Danish captain for the treatment of my pilot, got back in my aircraft and continued on to Aalborg.

Bf 110 landed at Skejby Mark near Aarhus 9/4 1940. The aircraft belonged to I./ ZG 1 and was coded 2N+H?. At 08:45 hours the Bf 110 made a normal landing at Skejby Mark due to engine problems. Sources: Helme, CP, JJ.

(Via Herluf Rasmussen)

Am I right?

[Marius]

Eugen,

Documents were lost and it is not possible to verify the data.

This is not true. Some documents are lost, other documents are safe. According to survived documents the collision on the 5th mentioned by Franek could have happened, but only during the aerial fighting of 112 eskadra with another German formation. It was reported by a Polish pilot long after the campaign`s end and has no confirmation in any other document. However this "maybe collision" has nothing to do with the mission flown by I./ZG 1.

And I don`t know anything about further Polish losses you could attribute to I./ZG 1 on the 4th September (up to the mentioned P.23 in Naklo area).

Regards,
Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Privet Evgeniy
Now you may see by yourself. There are no documents, this causing some claims speculative, but there are documents making them not speculative.
Be careful with those data and take them with a grain of salt.
Regarding combat of 5 September - there is an account of an airman who took part in the battle and who was killed in 1941, so the account could not have been written long after the events. More, in the account the one may find a suggestion, that one of the fallen pilots may have been hit by enemy (it was considered to be more 'honorary' to be killed by enemy and not by an ordinary collision), but otherwise it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision.
Concerning other possible kills of ZG1, kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September, some other aircraft being shot up. I have scans of original 1939 documents.
History is not one sided.
I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread.

[Marius]

We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.

it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision

In fact nothing is clear. "An account of an airman"... Just one simple question to Franek: What is the name of this airman?

By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2.

kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September

Kpt.Rolski seems to be the only one who wrote about a "Bf 110" on this day. In fact the pilots of III/4 saw no differences between a Do 17 and a Bf 110. They even didn`t know what a Bf 110 was.
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s).
The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie.

I have scans of original 1939 documents.

You mean Polish documents. I think this is a very important difference. But regarding the participating German aircraft types these documents are
(almost) useless.

I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread.

A very good idea! The last time your fellowman Mirek was starting with furious personal attacks. I hope you make it better Franek.

Best wishes,
Marius

[Ruy Horta]

Gentlemen, this is an interesting discussion, I hope we can keep it civilized.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Heya!

Why are you so agressive? Take it easy

Yep, there is a lot of missindefication during early war For example Bf110 from 4./SKG 210, shot down by Kapitan Kruglov from 124 IAP, was identificated as Do 215

Its all clear over Poland & Denmark. Lets talk about Wesern claims of Gruppe - Dunkirk, Holland...

[Marius]

Eugen,

the problem is the following: there exist no work describing the whole air war or Luftwaffe activities over France and the low countries in 1940. Regarding the Bf 110 we have the book Zerstörer written by John Vasco. But it is clear, still many details are not known so far and even more questions remain unanswered.

The Luftwaffe in Poland 1939 was the same problem until I started my investigation some more than 15 years ago. I hope someone will make it similar about the French campaign.

Franek wrote about important scans of documents. I am very interested. Please give Franek the possibility to present these documents here on the forum. I think we can discuss them more or less all together.
I am also interested in the action of Bf 110 over France. I hope someone can present us some unknown details.

And Eugen, who is aggressive here?

Best wishes,
Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Evgeniy, simply the war is not over for some people.

Ruy, I will do all my best.

Originally Posted by Marius

We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.

I can hardly call it unproductive but indeed for some it brought completely nothing.

In fact nothing is clear. "An account of an airman"... Just one simple question to Franek: What is the name of this airman?

Łapkowski, commander of a section in the very combat.

By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2.

Those were the only losses of Brygada Pościgowa, apart of few damaged aircraft.

Kpt.Rolski seems to be the only one who wrote about a "Bf 110" on this day. In fact the pilots of III/4 saw no differences between a Do 17 and a Bf 110. They even didn`t know what a Bf 110 was.
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s).
The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie.

Your whole comments have nothing to the reality. I have scans of original diary of the unit and there is no single mention of Me 110 apart of later comments, apparently added by Rolski at Salon. Initially Leśniewski 'was downed by Do-17s' and then later confirmed to be Me 110s. Apparently I.(J)/LG2 took part in the earlier combat and actually downed nothing.

You mean Polish documents. I think this is a very important difference. But regarding the participating German aircraft types these documents are
(almost) useless.

Absolutelly, Polish documents filed at the time of Polish Campaign.

A very good idea! The last time your fellowman Mirek was starting with furious personal attacks. I hope you make it better Franek.

You will see.