French H-75A-4 aircraft

[Petitpoucet]

Hello Steven,

I think it is not a shame that that aircraft was restored as an A1. I'm French and very happy to see the only Curtiss Hawk 75 in flight with french markings.
S. Grey is not an historian, and got false informations, which were "true" few years ago.
Nobody can reproach him something. He really sought to know the truth, and a few time ago, nobody knew which n°82 has been used in Cazaux. Nobody knew that the A1 became a Finnish Hawk. And nobody knew that the A4 used a P&W engine in Cazaux.

So the data plate (not an original one) cannot be correct, because it is not the right aircraft, and because A1 n°82 = c/n 12879.

Concerning the wings, the were not complete in the wreck, and nobody can be sure that it was the original ones, they could have been changed before 1949.

[Modeldad]

Please do not misunderstand me. I love seeing the aircraft restored as an A-1. Truely a beautiful sight.

But like some some old dinosaur fossils that had been on public display, which had bones mix up (the head of one species was put on the body of another species) our understanding of the history of an aircraft can be most incorrect.

Getting the facts straight does not deminish the efforts of the restorers, it just makes us aware of the liberties they took. After all the Smithsonian national Air and spece Museum restored the Ar 234 to a "what if " scheme, because they wanted it to be more representitive of a late war aircraft. But the aircraft itself is beautiful, none the less.

[Petitpoucet]

Yes , but i really think that they believed to have the A1 n°82.

[Lucien]

Let us be realistic. What Stephen Grey and his friends did with what was a wreck is just fabulous. There is no word "big" enough to praise him.
Now what about its disguise ? The fact that this a/c is THE H751 (A4) Nr 82 is irrelevant. It has been remotorized (in France) with a P & W and it looks for all world like a H75 so what was Grey's possibilities ?
- Having it re-remotorized with a Wright and have in hands an a/c of a model never used operationnaly by the Armée de l'Air ? or
- Keep it with its present motorization and have it restored and painted as a H75 which was widely used in action during the 1939-1940 campaign ?
Personnaly, I think that he did the right thing... And the result will honour, for years I hope, the memory of those countrymen of mine who lost their lives, flying this little America beauty.
What is more questionable but this is a Franco-French problem, how our stupid (to remain polite) administration did to let this hightly historical a/c leave the country ?

[Petitpoucet]

Hello Lucien,

I completly agree with you.
But i persist in thinking that when he decided to restore his Hawk, he thought his aircraft was really the A1.
He still believed it a few time ago, and i'm not really sure that it changed.

[Modeldad]

I recently communicated with someone who was at Chino, and I was left with the distinct impression that the aircraft is still being represented as an A-1 that saw action and that any "colors uncovered" were as they were in 1939/40.

Please understand, my only issue is that I would simply like to get the facts on this restored aircraft.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Great Photos and grand to see the data plate.
Question - Were they built in sequence or not ?
Might a/c number 82 be 12881 and not 12879 ?

Indeed 12879 , X-881, Should have been a/c 82 by all accounts.
But if the a/c were out of sinc then could it be that
12881 was the 82nd a/c off the production line.
These things happened.

Also I think it is well reported that 12879 ws taken by the Germans and was passed to the Fins to become CU-568. She was involved in a crash on 1st July 1942.What happened after this, was she repaired or scrapped?
If indeed CU-568 was 12879 Then what happened to her ?

Is it possible that the wreck was sold off to the French for spare parts for their remaining few in North Africe ?

Or was 82 12881 and not after all X-883, 84.

Which ever she was she looks just great. Well done to all involved.

Thanks
Alex

[Juha]

Hello Alex
CU-568 was SOC 16.8.42 according to Keskinen, Stenman, Niska: Curtiss Hawk 75A P-40M (1975). I don't believe that Finns would have sold off the wreck to the French for spare parts. Finns have they own Hawk 75As to look after, after all it was one of their main first-line fighter types at that time even if LLv. 32, the user of Hawk 75As, was down to 12 CUs on June 1st 1942. In 1943 Finns bought 15 more Hawk 75As (ex-French) from Germans.

Juha

LATER ADDITION: CU-568 stalled in inverted position,went to a flat spin, hit the ground appr. 30 deg angle, was smashed and buried itself up to back bulkhead of cockpit into the ground. Pilot KIFA. This from Hyvönen's Kohtalokkaat lennot 1939 - 1944 (2001). So there were probably not very much useful left in the wreck.

[takata_1940]

(edited as this work is under publication)

[Lucien]

As far as I know, when he did try to identify his a/c, Grey was misleaded by a couple of self-elected French "experts"... renowed in this country for their constant lack of knowledge... and their pig-headedness when wrong. What couls be then expected ? But who cares ? I am pretty sure that Stephen Grey knows very well that his beauty is not a H75 but who cares ? Let us enjoy it, I mean for those who can. Personnaly I live too far from where the action is and I do not think that I will have the opportunity to see it. I deeply regret it