He111s III/KG3 and KG53 in late 1944

[Brian]

Many thanks, Tony, that sounds really interesting. Hope to be at Kew later this week.

Cheers
Brian

[Brian Bines]

From NVM's there were nine losses in Holland, France and Belgium between July and August 1944 from KG 3. In 8th. Oct a He 111 of 1/KG 3 crashed at Groet, on 23rd. Oct. one of 1/KG 53 crashed off Zandvoort and on 5th. Nov. one of 2/KG 53 crashed at Kotwijk. Other crashes occured in Germany and Denmark in the period,
Regards
Brian Bines

[Nick Beale]

It's not really true to say that National Archives AIR40/45 contains "a month by month crash location for every German a/c in France, Belgium, Holland and later on Germany."

What it contains is a series of reports from RAF (and later Allied) Air Technical Intelligence Teams on enemy aircraft that were shot down, crashed, were abandoned or captured on territory held or overrun by Allied forces.

You will look in vain for much from Holland because a big area of the country remained in German hands until the last and there is nothing much from anywhere but Northern Germany either. Also they seem to have lost interest in cataloguing wrecked aircraft quite soon after the war ended.

There are however masses of wrecks on British soil, in Normandy and casualties of the Ardennes/Bodenplatte operations. More details on some of these aircraft can be found scattered throughout other 2 TAF files. For Africa, Sicily and Italy you need to go to the AIR23, AIR24 & AIR51 series.

The website of the Luftwaffe Archives Group (www.lwag.org) has more about this topic.

[Jaap Woortman]

According to the loss list of the Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945 the following He 111 crashes of KG 3/53 have taken place in the Netherlands.

26‑07‑1944 Eindhoven/Acht He 111 5K+GT W.Nr.161230, 9./K.G.3. Flugzeugabsturz durch Beruehrung mit Hochspannungsmast. Pilot Uffz. Günter Rohne. Time 0.10 hrs.

31-08-1944 Gilze(Vossenberg) He 111 W.Nr. 16771 of 8./KG 3. Time 0500 hrs. Pilot Uffz. L.Gruber.

19-09-1944 Scharl(Fr.) He 111A-1 W.nr. 610571 of 8./KG 53. Time unknown. Pilot Fw. H.Holz.

07-10-1944 Groet(Heereweg) He 111H-16 W.Nr.160969 of 8./KG 53. Time 20.00 hrs. Pilot Fw. L.Gall.

9/10-10-1944 IJsselmeer(Vrouwenzand) He 111 III./KG 53 100% Bruch.

09-10-1944 Nyemirdum/Kippenburg He 111 100% Bruch. KG 53 Pilot Fw.A.Schmidt.
09-10-1944 Nyemirdum/Kippenburg He 111 100% Bruch. KG 53 Pilot Fw. V.Kappel. Collision between the both.

19-11-1944 IJsselmeer(near Molkwerum) He 111H-16. 100% Bruch. 5./KG 53. Pilot Fw. R.Ripper.

25-11-1944 Texel(16 km. from) He 111H-16 W.Nr. 110304. 1./KG 53. Time 05.10 hrs. Pilot Fw. K.Hillmann.

27-11-1944 Hillegom. He 111. Unit unknown, could be from a TG. No more information available.

Jaap Woortman
Secr. Study Group Airwar 1939-1945.

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

Regarding 27 Nov 44 - no crash in Hillegom - a member of a German ground unit was killed - Fsch Jg Rgt 15.

On 4/5 Nov 44 - He 111 H 16, W/nr 8540, A1 + GK, 2./KG 53 - near Katwijk - Antennenberührung und Notlandung harten Aufschlag. Feindflug gegen England. Crew: Pilot: Obfhr Karl Heinz Mallach (+), Obs Ogefr Paul Röhl (+), gunner Uffz Karl H Welzel (+) and gunner Ogfr Anton Kartak (wia).

Is there any more data available on 23 Oct 44 crash near Zandvoort?

Regards
Rob

[Brian Bines]

All I have for the 23-10-44 is He 111 H16 5K+ER of 1/KG 53 w.n. 161619 crashed ( notwassern) into the sea following engine trouble at Pl.Qu 4355 (off Zandvoort ?) . Bs Ogef Walter Hasler drowned body recovered, rest of crew not named rescued,

Regards
Brian Bines

[Brian]

Many thanks Brian, Nick, Jaap and Rob - I didn't expect such an excellent and speedy response.

Since you all seem so far knowledgeable than me, are you able to advise the identities of the three III/KG3 crews (plus aircraft markings/WrkNr etc) lost on the night of 27-28 July 1944?

Also, an aircrew member of 7/KG53, Hans Hoehler was wounded and the observer killed (possibly on the night of 3-4 January 1945). Any further details would be most welcomed.

I have further queries!!!!


Cheers
Brian

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Brian (and Jaap and Rob)

You could expect I would show up in this thread !

Some small details to Jaap's list:

07.10.44 Wnr 160969
5K+DS hit the Southern antenna of the Sonne-Electra system at Groet-Petten. The exact crash time is 19.29 hrs
FF: Fw Lothar GALL, ErkM 54595/18 (KIA)
BO: Fw Mathias OBERMAYER, ErkM 53452/150 (KIA)
BF: Fw Heinz DAHMS, ErkM 54595/23 (KIA)
BM: Uffz Peter IRMTRAUD, ErkM 71061/586 (KIA)
BS: Obgefr Kurt BUSCH, ErkM 71069/350 (KIA)

10.10.44 Wnr Unknown
exact crashtime is 01.15 hrs. The crew was rescued. The wreckage was recovered after the war, see atttached image.

25.11.44 Wnr 110304
A1+BH didn't crash 10 miles West of Texel (as stated in the Combat Report), but 10 km W of Egmond.
FF: Fw Kurt HILLMANN, ErkM 53543/793 (KIA)
BO: Uffz Rudolf MARTIN, ErkM 215508/122 (MIA)
BF: Fw Ludwig KALBER, ErkM 53543/195 (MIA)
BM: Uffz Jürgen HAUSER, ErkM 53543/196 (MIA)
BS: Uffz Josef FAUERNIG, ErkM 65060/1 (MIA)

Best regards,
Hans Nauta

[Brian Bines]

Jaap- the He 111 you list at Hillegom on the 27-11-44 may have been one of the two aircraft of 1/TG 30 lost on this day. I have part of a NVM which shows one aircraft w.n. ?422 with Ff.Ofw. Ernst Fiala inj. B Uffz. Georg Lindemann +, Bf Fw. Emil Mohrhardt +, Bd Uffz. Robert Ulrich +. Bw Uffz. Karl Selbach +. The other aircraft was S3+AH w.n. 701399 with Ff Fw. Erich Hamann inj. died on 28-11-44 at Lw. Laz. Frankfurt B. Gef Heinrich Bomholt ?, Bf Uffz Hans Kreuzer ?, Bd Uffz. Alfred Luders ? and Bw Uffz Alfred Haase ? I assume that Ofw. Fiala's aircraft would be the most likely to have crashed at Hillegom.
I believe a He 111 was claimed shot down at 0325 hrs by a P 61 crew of the 422 nd. NF Squadron on the 27th. but I have no more details,
Regards,
Brian Bines

[Brian]

Thanks guys for the above - all will be acknowledged in my forthcoming book!

Jaap - I notice you have a III/KG53 loss for 9/10 Ocober in the IJesselmeer. I have a note that A1+FN/7000666 ditched in the IJesselmeer on 14/15 October. Is this one and the same? If so, which is the correct date?
Secondly, the crash site of Holz's aircraft on 19 September is shown as Scharl, France. Is this correct? If so, where is it?

Brian - you mention other crashes in Denmark and Germany - are you able to advise me here (in detail) or by PM? I am eager to learn as much as I possibly can. Thanks. Incidentally, the He111 shot down by 422ndNFS P-61 was claimed by Lt Paul A. Smith, who accounted for a V-1 on the same patrol.

Guys - see also my Post No.17 above

More queries to come!

Cheers
Brian