The first ace to reach a certain score

[HGabor]

Knusel, just because you do not think that the Soviet loss lists are complete and much more reliable than claims lists it is still true. For Hungary we obtained all (I mean: ALL!) Soviet loss records which created a unique and unprecedented situation. This is how we could write the book and how we can confidently prove/disprove ANY Axis claims over the country. If you never take the effort to do some real and authentic military research apart from reading books, articles and websites, certainly your loss lists will never ever be complete. In order to get the ultimate result, you must go to the ultimate sources, namely the TsAMO RF archives where the Soviet aircraft loss records are stored. Our museum did this before this recent tragic war and we got all loss records for Hungary from all Soviet air units that fought over the country in 1944-1945. From consecutive war diaries the very same losses cross-referenced at regiment-, division- and air army-levels, combat, as well as non-combat losses including accidents, wear and tear write offs - everything. By the way, have you ever become dirty by digging out aircraft wrecks from forests or fields or swamps in order to compare them to the loss documentation and return the missing aircrews to their late families? Well, we have, and probably needless to say, but every time when a Soviet aircraft was recovered, its numbers matched the corresponding loss report! So please do not tell me that they cannot be trusted, or they are incomplete, because this is only your personal and unverified opinion. Since WWII these records help to identify the remains of the missing and recovered Soviet aircrews. I can say this after going through thousands of such pages. Some mechanical reports are so detailed that they even report which cylinder, or cylinder-row was repaired within a certain aircraft engine! And these are solid facts, not just assumptions, or false, yet popular legends that some biased people do not want to give up. See a small variety of records I was talking about:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1949974...77720307385993

Certainly you can do whatever you want, including claiming statistics, but keep in mind that it will not change the truth – which is very often not reflected by the claims.
Cheers,
Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Your posts and your book show the depth of your research and the completeness of the records extremely well, Gabor. We are lucky to have you here.

You amply demonstrate that Ace Pilots did not fly in a vacuum. There were other human beings in the aircraft that make up their victories and overclaiming was indeed a factor

[HGabor]

Thank you Nick, I just try to find out what really happened in the past with all available evidences. That's all.
Cheers,
Gabor

[knusel]

In a few cases the dates are missing which makes it harder to verify a claim and even harder to negate it.
For example Hartmann's #347.

[HGabor]

If the date is missing, it is equally difficult to prove, or disprove a claim, - neither is harder than the other. However, there are visible tendencies for each pilot.

[knusel]

Sometimes also the claimed aircraft type is unknown, for example Hartmann's #346.

[HGabor]

Agree.