Captured P-38s in Italy

[kaki3152]

The riddle of the third P-38 that landed in Italy and was captured by the Axis

The first was the P-38F/G armed version that was captured by the Italian A/F on June 12,1943 (s/n unknown) in Sardinia after a mistaken landing By Lt. Dwight C. Hartle (O-737779) after compass trouble. Lt. Hartle was a member of the 3rd Photo Recon Group and was flying a courier mission. This P-38 was used by the Italian AF in combat, downing a B-17 on August 11,1943. According to reports, this P-38 was eventually rendered unairworthy due to the Italian fuel used in the American Allison motors.

The third P-38 model was Lt. Martin Monti’s defection to the Axis on October 11,1944 after stealing an F-5G, 44-23725 from an air park. He landed at Milan-Linate A/F at 1500hrs. The F-5G was used extensively by Zirkus Rosarius and was captured after the war by US troops at Schwangau A/F in May 1945. Curiously, it had a different nose by then, obviously having suffered some damage to the previous one.


The identity of the third P-38 is the puzzler. We have all seen the glorious color picture of a P-38F/G depicted in full Luftwaffe colors, with a yellow underbelly and coded T9+XB. Its identity remains unknown. The Luftwaffe had an operational P-38 in flying condition for the Rechlin A/F demonstration in June 12-13,1944. The biggest clue comes from a posting in the LW Discussion Group dated 12-21-99 where a ex-Luftwaffe pilot Heinz Girnth [Ofwb-III/JG-53,member of 9/JG-53 since August 1942] reported that an Allied P-38 had landed at their base in Italy, date unknown, by total mistake. The P-38 was captured. Further went on to state that German fuel would corrode the American fuel tanks and they had to modify the wing tanks to accommodate German fuel before any extensive testing could be done. He was chosen to ferry the P-38 to Berlin. An 82nd FG P-38 pilot, who was captured on August 20,1943(Lt. Paul Van Ordt) was shown a picture of a captured P-38 and recognized the pilot as one of his classmates.

Anyhow, my guess is that this happened between September-December 1943. Any insights welcome

[Alex Smart]

Maybe this will help ?

https://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/f...38-lightnings/

[edwest2]

Hi Alex,


Unless you have your original user name and password, you can't see any content.

[Alex Smart]

Hi Ed,
Sorry about that, but here is the text.
Don't think the photo links will work though.

Luftwaffe use of Captured American aircraft


Luftwaffe Experten Message Board
PeterEvans LEMB Admin
Captured/wrecked Lockheed F5/P-38 Lightnings
By PeterEvans LEMB Admin, August 20, 2005 in Luftwaffe use of Captured American aircraft

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted August 20, 2005
It seems that two F5E Lightnings were captured intact by the Luftwaffe, coded T9+XB and T9+MK both were assigned to 2./Versuchsverband Ob.d.L. I will reproduce an interesting article from Luftwaffe Verband magazine concerning the capture of one of these aircraft. Any additional comments or photos would be greatly appreciated...



below: Lockheed F5E, coded T9+MK - comments anybody?

f5-01.jpg



below: poor photograph of a Lockheed F5E in Luftwaffe markings - any comments?

f5-02.jpg



below: Lockheed F5E, coded T9+MK of Versuchsverband Ob.d.L

f5-03.jpg



below: Lockheed F5E, coded T9+MK of Versuchsverband Ob.d.L

f5-04.jpg



below: Lockheed F5E in Luftwaffe markings but no codes (copyright: Roba, via Luftwaffe Verband magazine)

f5-05.jpg

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted August 20, 2005
below: Excellent colour image of T9+XB - scanned from: Markierungen und Tarnanstriche der Luftwaffe im 2. Weltkrieg Band IV by Karl Ries.(via J Vd Heuvel/LEMB)

P38a.jpg



below: A color-profile of T9+XB (via J Vd Heuvel/LEMB)

P38-1x.jpg



below: Another photograph of the P-38 T9+MK. This was after recapture by the allies apparently in the same field as the photos shown above. The pilot standing on the tail of the aircraft is Lt. Roland White of the 357th Fighter Group. I can almost, but not quite make out the serial number with the enhancement program I am running.(via Todd Curry/LEMB)

toddp38.jpg



below: Color profile of F-5E coded 44-23725. (via Alex Smart from Air War Italy 1944/45 by Beale, D'Amico and Valentini.)

F_5E_2_1_German.jpg



below: T9+MK camoulflaged with brush. Note that the number 3725 is visible on the nose. (via Alex Smart from Air War Italy 1944/45 by Beale, D'Amico and Valentini)

F_5E_2_1_German_2.jpg



F_5E_2_1_German_8.jpg



below: Close-up of the nose of 3725 showing the tear-drop shaped camera bulge detail. (via Alex Smart from Air War Italy 1944/45 by Beale, D'Amico and Valentini)

F_5E_2_1_German_7.jpg



below: North American F5E in Luftwaffe markings but no codes (copyright: Roba, via Luftwaffe Verband magazine)

f5-05.jpg



below: Scanned from "FLUGZEUG" Archiv Band 8, photo: Dobler. It's credited to be a P38 of Zirkus Rosarius shown to an unknown unit at Agram in 1941. According to what I've read the Luftwaffe captured 2 P38's - T9+MK a recce version of the Lightning whose story is reported here on the LEMB and a second one T9+XB a G version of which you can see a wonderfull colour picture above. What about this 1941's picture??? No German markings are visible and this aircraft looks to be painted differently from the T9+XB....Is it maybe the same aircraft before repainting?

p38-01.jpg



below: poor photograph of a North American F5E in Luftwaffe markings - any comments?

f5-02.jpg

Mike Murphy
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Posted September 3, 2005
The following photos are from 'On Special Missions - The Luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923 - 1945'. A nice photo of T9+MK taken either at Greifswald or Husum.



post-1-0-78542400-1322396977_thumb.jpg post-1-0-13412900-1322396979_thumb.jpg



Mike

Jure Miljevic
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Posted September 4, 2005
Hello

Can anybody tell me, where these F-5s were captured? Regards

Jure

Mike Murphy
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Posted September 5, 2005
Hello Jure -



The following paraphrased text is from 'On Special Missions - The Luftwaffe's Research and Evaluation Squadrons 1923 - 1945'.



F-5E s/n 44-23725 of the 354th Air Services Squadron (T9+MK) was not actually captured in the traditional sense. Lt. Martin J. Monti, who had very strong political views went AWOL from his unit, the 126th Replacement Depot in India, while awaiting assignment to a P-38. He made his was to Italy and tried to join up with the 82nd FG but the commander, Col Edwinson refused his request. Lt. Monti then went to Pommigliano Airfield on October 13, 1944 and stole an F-5E by presenting himself as a test pilot. The F-5E he stole was scheduled for evaluation after repairs and thus Lt. Monti was able to take control of the aircraft without arousing any suspicions. He flew the F-5E in the direction of the front but became lost and landed near Milan at a German held fighter strip. Lt. Monti is the only membe of the USAAF to defect to the Germans. His aircraft was taken over by Zirkus Rosarius and was finally flown to Schongau in Austria, May 1945. Lt. Monti survived the war and was court martialled for stealing the F-5E and was released from prison in 1948 with the rank of sergeant. However, he was re-arrested by the FBI on charges of treason because he had apparently assisted the Germans with radio propaganda broadcasts. He served 28 years in prison and was released in 1977.



Mike

Jure Miljevic
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Posted September 5, 2005
Thanks Mike, for interesting story about T9+MK. Regards

Jure

Alex Smart
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Posted September 6, 2005
Hi,



Re the last photo of T9+MK. This is IIRC the first time that we have seen the T9 code shown on the underwing. Did I miss it before ?



Alex

Mike Murphy
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Posted September 25, 2005
The following color profile is from 'On Special Missions - The Luftwaffe's Research and Evaluation Squadrons 1923 - 1945'. T9+MK



post-1-0-74919200-1322397085_thumb.jpg



Mike

Peter van Gogh
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Posted September 29, 2005
fore sale on ebay



post-22-1128018580_thumb.jpg

Mike Murphy
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Posted November 19, 2005
The following photos are from 'Air Classics' magazine, volume 41, number 1. The following photos of F5E T9+MK were sent in to the Air Classics reader's section by Michael Ryles of Merritt Island, FL among a group of 60 aircraft photos purchased at a junk shop in New Smyrna, FL. The photos were taken by Tim Shaw who was a medic. An article entitled 'Deserter' was published in the September issue of Air Classics which relates the story of Lt. Monti and the stolen F5E. If any has the September 2004 issue of 'Air Classics', I'd very much appreciate a scan of the article 'Deserter'.



post-1-0-40751000-1322397152_thumb.jpg post-1-0-13257200-1322397154_thumb.jpg



Mike

Alex Smart
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Posted December 26, 2005
Hi,



Anyone know the serial number of the P38G that landed at Capoterra, Sardinia on the 12th June 1943? I think it might have been an 82nd Fighter GTroup aircraft. Pilots name too, he was taken POW? She was later used by Tondi, and was later bombed by the allies at Guidonia in early June of '44 and destroyed.



Alex

Alex Smart
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Posted February 12, 2006
Can someone confirm that The Italian "Tondi's" P38 later became the Luftwaffe's T9+XB ?



Alex

Kaki Primero
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Posted March 4, 2006
Alex.



I believe the Italian P-38 and the German P-38 are two separate aircraft. There is a posting on the 12'oclock web site from 1999 that reports Fw. Heinz Girnth (II/JG53) reported ferrying a captured P-38 from the Mediterranean to Germany. This I believe is the origin of the P-38 T9+XB. The Italian P-38G was destroyed by an Allied bombing raid, according to Mattioli's book on the P-38 in Italian AF.

Carlos

Alex Smart
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Posted July 31, 2006
Hi,



Just to add to the thread. On the 9th December 1944 when the 4 P51's from the 325th FG were lost, and 1 perhaps 2 became used by the Luftwaffe. The P51's were escort to a single P38 recconacence a/c serial number 44-24710 of the 5th FRG, 32nd FRS, piloted by Lt. Don E. Walters ( Checkertails book has him named as Donald Walters). This P38L-1 (F5E-4) was also lost and its pilot became a POW. The a/c was reported as crashing near Munich, Another note is "at Amstetten" and only 20-30% Damaged. Is it not possible that this a/c was also used by the Luftwaffe ?



Alex

Griffon
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Posted August 2, 2006
Alex, you provided me with a very interesting answer to a question I was about to post. the Lightning you are referring to really came down in Amstetten, on the edge of the city near a hydro power station to be precise. my father who was 14 years old back then can remember seeing the plane lying on its belly near the bank of the small river that feeds the power station. later, it was loaded on a trailer and sent to Markersdorf apparently, where the LW had an airfield. my guess is, that it was tried to bring the Lightning back to flying condition there. my dad can clearly remember the troubles, the salvage crew had when they tried to drive thru Amstetten with their Lightning, as the span was too wide to get it around one particular corner. only with much trouble did they manage to clear this corner finally. I cannot tell though if this bird was ever brought back to flying condition though or what became of it.



cheers

phil

Alex Smart
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Posted August 13, 2006
Hi,



Also i think there may have been an earlier Captured P38 as pilot Harold Lentz reported that he was shot down by a captured P38 in March of 1943.



Alex

Alex Smart
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Posted December 2, 2006
Hi,



The MACR for the F5E-4-LO 44-24710 is 10127. Anybody got a copy please ? NOT SURE if it is 12th September 1944 and so it would be another P38/F5 a/c on the 9th December 1944 after all.



Alex

peter_four_oh
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Posted March 5, 2007
These two photos were recently sold on epay... Close-up of second photo



http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...LEMB/aero1.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...EMB/aero1a.jpg



Fade to Black...

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted March 6, 2007
Super pictures those Steve, thanks for posting them... having been out of the Ebay loop since October, I've missed these gems. I wonder if Jan snapped them up?

PatrickVG
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Posted November 23, 2007
Two more from T9+MK, both are from Ebay.de and where send to me sometime ago by Email.

post-613-1195839984_thumb.jpg post-613-1195840000_thumb.jpg

PetrOs
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Posted June 10, 2008
Even if its a bit time since the last post in this thread, Im planning to build the T9+MK in 1/48 using the Academy F-5E kit (as shown in the photos of Mike Murphy) , so have a few questions more, about the colors

1) Undersides were yellow, but which RLM color?

2) Upper sides of fuselage - bare metal? Were the anti-glare panels olive drab or black?

3) Was the stencilling still there, or scrapped off/overpainted?



Im going to use the Decals Carpena sheet which provides the decals for the T9+XB, and replace the lettering with the MK.

Jerry Brewer
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Posted August 11, 2008
Hi All,



Revi 60, has an short article on captured allied a/c and includes a lists of some captured allied a/c and codes, one in the list is a P-38B-1-LO coded 4+2 presumably the 'B' is a typo? 'E'?



post-204-1218422542_thumb.jpg



So anyone know what model P-38 was 4+2 ?



Cheers

Jerry

Tom Willis
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Posted August 11, 2008
Hi Jerry



There is no way that this aircraft could have received the Rechlin 2=digit code 4+2. The time line is out by at least 3 years. From aircraft No 40 to 50 range from those seized and captured French & RAF types from middle to late 1940. There were no duplications, each new aircraft tested received the next number in line. It was used only mainly for foreign types although these seems to be at least one German DFS230



Hope this helps



Regards

Tom Willis

Jerry Brewer
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Posted August 16, 2008
Hi



Thought it seemed a low number, but does anyone know if any of the other data/codes in the table is accurate. Maybe another number then instead of 4 ? It's strange because it lists an unknown P-38 subtype , a 'B' , I thought first a typo for 'D'



cheers

Jerry

Guest PPP
Guest PPP
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Posted November 21, 2008
P-38G T9+XB- if it was the aircraft that shot down J.C. Harrison Lentz 25 March 1943-it must have been lost possibly perhaps 1 or 2 months previous? Any P-38G from 14th Fighter Group that landed behind enemy lines {Pilot POW{?} and sustainability intact candidates?

Guest PPP
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Posted November 28, 2010
related links http://forum.armyairforces.com/tm.as...mpage=1#157558

Jerry Brewer
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Posted December 14, 2010
Hi All



Anyone know which P-38 was being investigated by the luftwaffe around about july 1943? Also any info on a P-38G being investigated around about sep 43



cheers

Jerry

Kaki Primero
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Posted August 4, 2011
The identity of the pilot who landed the wayward P-38G at Capoterra A/F in Sardinia on June 12,1943 had been identified. His name is Lt. Dwight C. Hartle, S/N O-73779 and he was a member of the 3rd Photographic Group. The plane has been tentatively identified as 43-2278 which was listed a "condemned missing non combat Oct 20, 1943". Even though Lt. Hartle belonged to the 3rd PG, the plane was definitively an armed P-38G with [apparent] 71 FS, 1 FG markings. According to a book on POWs memoirs, Lt. Hartle was flying from Malta to Tunis when he went off course and landed in Sardinia. According to the book " Lockheed P-38 in Italian Service 1943-1955" by Marcelo Mattioli, there was a fault in the compass caused by " a magnetization of part of the weapon support [in the nose]" which caused the P-38 to fly off course. This begs the question of the identity of the other P-38 captured by the Luftwaffe and flown to Germany. OF course, there is that stunning color photograph. Any thoughts?

Alex Smart
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Posted September 8, 2011
Hello,



I have just been looking in Jean-Louis Roba's book "Forign Planes in the Service of the Luftwaffe". There are the known photos of the captured P38's but there is one (on page 190) that seems to show the "Italian Tondi" Lightning before the addition of Italian markings. The spinners are not all white but the tips do have a light colour, there seems to be an a/c letter or number on the side of the a/c nose. and the codes can just be seen on the Radiator still in a light colour, Grey or white. It together with the other pictures that are known of this a/c in Italian markings leads me to believe that the a/c was Filmed following the capture and replacement of markings, OR that there was a Photographer present throughout the change over. Text refers to the a/c probably delivered by a defector. Can anyone reproduce the picture here and maybe increase the definition?



Also can anyone confirm the Group/Squadron that had camouflaged P38's and whose squadron codes were on the radiators and who had letters or numbers on the forward fuselage and had the Prop Hubs tips painted in a light colour ?

Thanks

Alex

P Hemingis
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Posted September 25, 2011
Hello Alex,



the following is a summary from "Ali straniere in Italia" Volume 6, "Prede di Guerra", Torino 2007, written by Giancarlo Garello:



The final war prize was particularly appreciated, a P-38G Lightning which on 12 June 1943, with fuel reserves down to a minimum, put its wheels onto the runway at Capoterra, near Cagliari. On the following day the aircraft, already wearing Italian insignia, was collected by Colonnello Angelo Tondi and transferred to Guidonia for evaluation. On 12 June 1943 an American Lieutenant, at the controls of a USAAF P-38G, landed in error at Capoterra (CA), where he was captured by the personnel on the airfield. Even today it is not possibly to clarify the identity of the aircraft, or its base of departure; according to a document produced by the Ufficio Difesa Contraerei of the Italian Army Staff the P-38 had taken part in a strafing attack on the radar station at Capo Pula, while documents from the Italian Air Defence Staff (Difesa Aerea files) and from Aerosardegna (the Sardinian Air Command) agreed in reporting that the Lightning, heading for Malta with secret despatches, had landed in Sardinia out of fuel. The author of this monograph favours the first version, confirmed by the then Sottotenente Pier Paolo Paravicini, a pilot with the 360 Squadriglia of the 155 Gruppo, who witnessed the event. The USAAF insignia were replaced with Italian markings (the traces of the original codes still visible on the tail boom are reminiscent of those of the 1st FG/94th FS), and the aircraft was collected on the following day by Tenente Colonnello Angelo Tondi, the commander of the 1 Reparto Volo of the Centro Sperimentale. After a brief familiarisation flight, he ferried the aircraft to Guidonia.



In a unique case amongst the Axis air forces, the captured aircraft was used in combat against its former owners: on 11 August 1943 Colonnello Tondi, flying the Lightning, intercepted a formation of USAAF heavy bombers returning from a raid on Terni, and attacked B-17G "Bonnie Sue", serial number 4230307, of the 301st BG/419th BS, which crashed in flames bear Torvaianica. Of pilot Lieutenant Albert Fensel and his crew, only Sergeant Ledford survived. An American report stated that the P-38 "carried swastikas" and that it performed five attacks damaging another three Flying Fortresses. The 301st BG reported the loss of a second B-17 on 4 September over Capua ("the Lady Evelyn", serial number 42-30344, crew chief Lt. Wilbur Crouch), down to "an enemy P-38". On the date of the Armistice the P-38 was at Guidonia, but in a precarious state of serviceability – it seems that the low octane Italian fuel created problems for the Lightning's Allison V-1710 engines – and it was requisitioned by the Germans. It is probable that the P-38G with code T9+XB, present in Germany during 1944, was the example seized from Guidonia.



Some remarks of the photo captions: ... The traces of an U on the starboard tail boom tend to suggest an aircraft from the 1st FG/94th FS, whose unite code was UN. .... The light-coloured tips (yellow ?) on the spinners are characteristic of the 94th FS. ... Recent research in USAAF archives revealed that on 12 June 1943 Lightning sn 43-2439 was reported missing but no details are given about the unit and the theatre of operations. Could it be the "renegade" P-38 flown by col. Angelo Tondi? ...



post-2500-0-32918600-1316940619_thumb.jpg post-2500-0-36340100-1316940909_thumb.jpg



In-spite of the very intensive examination of the photographs the author made no mention of the serial number on the nose of the P-38 (at least at the port side) of which the last two digits 67 are discernible (second photo). Perhaps this helps



regards

Paul

Tom Willis
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Posted September 25, 2011
Hi Paul



An interesting case-study of the possible identity of the Italian P-38 has been discussed at various sites here. One such gives the serial number as 2278 (43-2278) but the date of loss does not match although this is listed as a possible contender for the Italian P-38 here. Regarding the last two digits! I see this a 62 rather than 67 and a possible 1 before the 6. Making this 162. There appears a possible 7 before the 1 but I do not think there were any serials with 7162? Could it be 2162?



Regards



Tom Willis

P Hemingis
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Posted September 25, 2011
Hello Tom,

perhaps you are right but I think the identity remains to be a mystery.



regards

Paul

Kaki Primero
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Posted September 28, 2011
Alex Smart said:
On the date of the Armistice the P-38 was at Guidonia, but in a precarious state of serviceability – it seems that the low octane Italian fuel created problems for the Lightning's Allison V-1710 engines – and it was requisitioned by the Germans. It is probable that the P-38G with code T9+XB, present in Germany during 1944, was the example seized from Guidonia.

What is your source of information on this? According to the book on Italian P-38s, it was destroyed on attack on Guidona. Here is the information as presented in " Lockheed P-38 in Italian service:1943-1955". [it] met its end during the Allied bombing actions upon Guidonia of 1 and 2 June 1944. The Italian Lightning, caught by surprise outside its hangar, was totally destroyed and its wreckage were [sic] picked up and piled up on a corner south of the airbase, alongside the scrap heaps of German aircraft and other prototypes previously destroyed.". It would be nice to see a photograph of the destroyed Lightning. I believe another P-38G made a landing on a German held A/F and was the source of T9+XB. Serial number could 42-13167? There is photo evidence of 42-13168 as serving with the 94th FS . 1st FG.

Alex Smart
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Posted November 27, 2011
Hello,



My thoughts on the picture of the Nose section that shows the number. I see it as a Lockheed Number, not a US serial number. Could be either of 7162 or 7167. This would bring it to be either of P38G 42-12728 or 42-12733. I cannot find anything on the WWW that gives any info on either aircraft.

Alex

Maciej Goralczyk
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Posted June 14, 2012
In regard to the beute F-5E in the first post here did you notice the small shield on the nose which seems to be an emblem?



Maciej

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted August 17, 2013
p-38-01-170813.jpgp-38-02-170813.jpgp38-03-170813.jpgp38-04-170813.jpgp38-05-170813.jpgp38-06-170813.jpg

1. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/231034701132

2. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/231034701148

3. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/231034701164

4. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/370879396573

5. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/370879396599

6. http://www.ebay.de/itm/28-Nizza-Nice...-/370879396618

Göran Larsson
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Posted August 17, 2013
Post #36 Marked 5E-L why I believe it is a 385th FS P-38.

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted April 21, 2014
Captioned by the seller as 44-23725 coded T9+MK of 2./Versuchsverband ObdL in January 1945



p38-01-210414.JPG

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-LOC...-/231210311108

PeterEvans LEMB Admin
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Posted July 12, 2014
p38-01-120714.JPG

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-2-WK-Flu...-/321458953535

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