An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

Let's forget my books on Erprobungsgruppe 210, and SKG 210/ZG 1, then...

You're right, I forgot those (while I have the first at home) but I was only sinking of SG/SKG units, not Bf 110 ones.

I will also second Daniel's comment above. While this thread started on the issue to link claims with victories, another issue is that claims may have been validated by the corresponding authority or not. For example, from memory the last Luftwaffe claim validated are from September 1944 and any claim after that is just a pilot's claim that could have been rejected by the process, so it is probable that accuracy of the claim (compared to real enemy losses) will be lower than in previous periods.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

There's my Luftwaffe aces of 1940 book................

I'm trying to get you LW aces from 1940 book off Amazon but it keeps transferring me to your fighters and bombers tome.

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

We have all seen the Erich Hartmann worship.

https://x.com/hw97karbine/status/209...357376601?s=20

https://x.com/Das_Pazer/status/2098482158210048069?s=20

And I do mean, worship.

Yet everyone, literally everyone, who reads and studies this forum knows, beyond a preponderance of the evidence, and indeed, beyond clear and convincing evidence, and in plain fact, beyond any reasonable doubt that Erich Hartmann does not deserve this worship.

My point is simple: if people around the world want to worship the top scoring fighter pilot of WWII (and of all time) shouldn't they, at the very least, be worshipping the right man?

Bronc

What I see most of the time on online discussion forums is extremes. Comments in poor taste. Extravagant claims about a number of things. Ridiculous comments. And the common thing among them is a lack of evidence. Something people can check.

It's a bit like a few men at various pubs making unsupported comments finding their counterparts online. They form an informal club if you will. As word spreads, others join too. And they somehow think that what they are saying is the same as people who have done the work and provided the references. There should be a sharp dividing line between experts and those who don't know what they are talking about. And that is the primary thing lacking online. It does not appear that anyone is making an effort to address this.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

beyond any reasonable doubt[/i] that Erich Hartmann does not deserve this worship.

My point is simple: if people around the world want to worship the top scoring fighter pilot of WWII (and of all time) shouldn't they, at the very least, be worshipping the right man?

Bronc

Another simple point: if Hartmann’s verifiable score turns out to be 70 (or whatever the figure is) he would still be a VERY successful fighter pilot.

[kaki3152]

But he will never be as good as Helmut Lipfert, who had a verification rate of 90% (e.g. Verified Victories Top JG 52 Aces over Hungary 1944-45)

[NickM]

Originally Posted by kaki3152

But he will never be as good as Helmut Lipfert, who had a verification rate of 90% (e.g. Verified Victories Top JG 52 Aces over Hungary 1944-45)

Even though Lipfert made jokes about being 'old' for a fighter pilot, it appeared his maturity and caution made his claims stand up to close scrutiny--at least over Hungary. Maybe earlier in his career he was more 'optimistic' in his claims, but who knows for sure.

[Nick Hector]

NickM,

A good source to check an earlier stage of his career, along with that of Barkhorn and Foennekold:

https://www.amazon.de/Drei-Falken-Lu.../dp/3869332484


The Black Cross Red Star series also provides much insight into claims versus losses in the East

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

NickM,

A good source to check an earlier stage of his career, along with that of Barkhorn and Foennekold:

https://www.amazon.de/Drei-Falken-Lu.../dp/3869332484

The Black Cross Red Star series also provides much insight into claims versus losses in the East

Looks 'muy interesante' but I will have to wait for an English language version; and it's set in Kerch/Crimea--what seemed to be the toughest, most intense part of Lipfert's career. Also, looks like there are more and more releases coming for the Kuban Bridgehead too; Tons of new material to read.

Thanks again,

NM