F-86 vs MiG 15, the claims...

[Jim Oxley]

Excellent, informative post JoeB. I sure hope that you are planning on putting that all into a book in the newar future.

I am surprised though at the various MiG losses reported by each country. I would have thought that China would have suffered the most, given they provided the bulk of MiG pilots. Yet the Soviets lost the most according to your research. That is interesting.

Keep up the great work.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Thanks for 411, Joe. Maybe this controversy is closer to being cleared up. I have read about the USAF study Sabre Measures Charlie but did not view a copy of the original document.

Did you figure out how many cases are still remaining in which the cause of loss is unknown?

[Leo Etgen]

Hello guys

Have any of you come across www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html before? This seems to be a nice web site with considerable information on the American aces of the Korean War. There is a link included concerning the Russian aces as well www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html I hope that some of you find this information interesting.

Horrido!

Leo

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hello guys

There is a link included concerning the Russian aces as well www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html I hope that some of you find this information interesting.

Interesting info qualitatively, but I'd be careful with the claim and loss accounting given on that site. For example, see the score of N. Sutyagin on that page, Soviet pilot credited with the most victories in Korea. The comparison of his credited victories v US sources purports to show 12 of 21 claims verified. I got quite a different answer using Soviet sources with exact types, times and places of his claims (beside date) v original US records. See this link for my findings v that site's day by day. I got a score of around 1.5 if his claims are weighted equally with other Soviet and Chinese claimants in the same combats. His maximum possible score would be 5, minimum possible score 0. Five US a/c of the general type he claimed (all F-86's as it happened) were shot down, one each on 5 different days when he was credited with victories. But, there were other Soviet claims at similar times and places each on those days, and known Chinese claims too on one of those days. See link:
http://www.acepilots.com/smf/index.php?topic=79

Re: Six Nifty .50's: there are still a number of F-86 losses whose cause I can't certainly determine, which is why I gave a range of 85-90. And it would depend on what burden of proof one used. For example if one said an F-86 loss in the same time window same day as a MiG claim was due to MiG unless it could be absolutely proved it wasn't, the number might be even higher than 90 (though not more than around 100 in any case). If one said it had to be proven it was a MiG loss, or if one rejected my inclusion of MiG damaged F-86's which returned safely but were never repaired as "MiG losses", the number might shrink below 85, though in no case less than around 80. I also still hope to get more US data on some incidents. And it's possible that detailed claim information from the Chinese and NK's might clarify a few situations, their claims aren't known in the same day to day detail as Soviet ones. But I doubt the end point will be complete certainty about all cases.

Joe

[drgondog]

Joe - I agree your approach and the directed result. On a smaller scale I have looked over ever 47 and 51 loss for the 355FG wrt fighter losses to GAF.

My numbers range from 28 (absolutely seen w/German fighter on tail if 'missing' and or seen to be be shot down) to 45 (all the prior plus 1.) shot up, returned and crashed, 2.) missing in area which had German fighters in area, c.) escaped/damaged but crashed when ran out of fuel) and careful to note the distinctions for each separate Pilot entry.

The most interesting research for me lately is developing the battle tracks, engagement locations and claims/macrs, and having a dialogue with the many very knowledgeable guys (Ruy, Erich, Leo, Richard, etc) on this forum to match LW units and pilots with the 355th FG encounters- which is kinda what you are doing on a larger scale.

It is particularly interesting when there is not a LW claim for a 355 loss and vice versa. These questions are the other side of Overclaims coin.

IMHO, every unit historian on either side should do as much as possible along these lines for posterity.

Regards, and Respect

Bill Marshall

[Daniel Nole]

Hi: Very interesant the theme. I have also investigate a lot about many of the claims of both sides in the Korean War and certainly is a very open theme. Sometimes also there are many differences in the version published.
A typical confussión with the numbers is the day June 17, 1951.

If you consult Korwald for F-86s losses this day, there are nothing but if you consult other publications you find:

49-1281 (4th FIG, 334th FIS) Heavy damaged by MiG.Written off Jun 25, 1951.(F-86A-5)
49-1334 (335th FIS) destroyed on ground by Bedcheck Charlie Jun 17, 1951 at Suwon.(F-86A-5)
49-1335 (335th FIS 4th FIW)shot down by MiGs Jun 17, 1951.(F-86A-5)

The 49-334 was destroyed early in the morning with grenadas by one Po-2 in Suwon, the 49-335 was shot down by Lev K. Shchukin of 17 IAP some hours after, and the 49-1281(LtCol Eagleston) was heavy damaged by Sergei Kramarenko of 176th GIAP and write off the 25th of the same month.

The confussion about the 49-1334 and 49-1335 in a constant in many publications.Already the published photos are not a good help to clear the id of the destroyed F-86 at Suwon.

The second "official" F-86 loss in combat with MiGs was the 49-1307 the June 18, 1951 but there are before this date some curious events with F-86 and MiGs.

The first one was the Apr 3, 1951. This day was loss the the 49-1173 of Maj Ronald D. Shirlaw. The official version say: "crashed behind enemy lines due to fuel exhaustion " .Korwall speak of:" Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion, bellied in on river bank 10 mi NW of Kaesong".

And what is the version the V-VS?

"A MiG-15 pilot of the 176th GIAP, Kapetan Ivan Yablokov,
caught by surprise the F-86A BuNo.49-1173 flown by Major Ronald D. Shirlaw, and riddled the fuel tanks and the fuel
boost with 23 mm shells. Shirlaw managed to belly land his crippled Sabre over NK territory, only to become a POW."

Iam near certain , this plane can be counted as a victory for the MiGs but is not so in the "official version".

As example If you count this F-86 and the two others of the Jun 17 , there are now 3 F-86s more "in credit" for the MiGs.

There are so many myths and historic deformations ; a typical example is the combat of the Dec 22, 1950.

In a early combat was shot down the F-86A-5 49-1176, the first one loss in Korea and in the second combat of the day the 4th FIW engaged the MiGs of the 177th IAP.
The 4th FIW claims were for six MiGs ; actually the losses were 2 MiGs ,pilots Zub(Wounded) and Barsegyan(KIA).
The MiG of St Li V. F. Deynegi was slight damaged with five 12.7mm and repaired.

Score of the day USAF 2, V-VS 1. And not : USAF 6 , V-VS 1.

The June 1953 was a great month for the F-86. "Officially" 77 MiGs were claimed as destroyed with the only loss of one F-86. The V-VS and PLAAF versions confirme in part the USAF version:

The V-VS losses were 24 MiGs and the PLAAF loss 43, with a total of 67 MiG destroyed.
Worst day, and the record in the Korean war was the Jun 30, 1953 with 16 MiGs destroyed(14 PLAAF and 2 V-VS).

In the other side the V-VS claims were for 36 F-86s , actually, after investigation of all claims and losses, only 3 of the F-86s were definitively destroyed by the MiGs this month.

Daniel Nole

[Daniel Nole]

Already in theme , I search information about the circunstances of the loss of this F-86s:

48-305 damaged by MiG.(F-86A-5)
49-1318 - lost to enemy action(F-86A-5)
50-587 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-1)
50-622 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-1)
50-666 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-5)
50-672 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-5)
51-2768 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-2770 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-2792 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-12942 -lost to enemy action(F-86F-10)
52-4313 - lost to enemy action(F-86F-30)

The F-86A-5 49-318 was used for the photo sessions with James Jabara after the combat of May 20, 1951(Actually this day he had used the 49-1319). After that, no more informations are available about the loss of this plane.

The 49-1319 in the other side was shot down by Pepelyayev the Oct 6, 1951, recovered, was transported near Moscow for study and investigation. The Sirena warning device installed in the MiGs after 1952 was part of the results of this investigation. Also works with the G suits systems but no utilised in the MiG-15.

Thanks

Daniel Nole

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Nole

The V-VS losses were 24 MiGs and the PLAAF loss 43, with a total of 67 MiG destroyed.
Worst day, and the record in the Korean war was the Jun 30, 1953 with 16 MiGs destroyed(14 PLAAF and 2 V-VS).

Hi,

What is your source for PLAAF losses? According to "Red Devils over Korean Sky" by I Seidov, PLAAF losses for June 53 were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.

Regards,
Szymon