Clostermann shot down?

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello to all.
I do have in my hands the French magazine LE FANA DE L´AVIATION from December 2001. There is a letter of Clostermann remembering the events of 21 APRIL 1945 ( page 21 ). Apparently he tried to discover the identity of the pilot who shot him down writing to the Gemeinschaft der Jagdflieger. This is HIS own account on the magazine ( of course translated to the English by myself ):
" Dontermann leading seven Fw 190 D-9 from I/JG 26 surprised six Tempest V. He attacked alone with Soffing covering. He immediately shot down Filmstar Red 2 ( F/L Mackenzie-Intyre ) and Red 4 ( F/Sgt Staines - who was a pilot on loan from 33 Squadron ) and dived on the deck. I ( Clostermann describing ) dived down behind him on the limit of the VNE, but he got me in 2"tempo" and 3 mouvements. Too low to bail out I landed my plane with the wheels down. A part the propellers and flaps the Tempest was intact. It was my 2nd Tempest from 3 I have flown and it had only 23 flying hours. It was sent to AMU at B-58 Bruxelles on the 17th May 1945, then transferred to Bristol Aero Co. of Banwell, stocked and sold to the Egyptians. Clostermann says he saw the same airplane at B-58 on the 20th May. It was hit by two 20mm shells. One of those shells had hit the spark plug link for the 6 upper cylinders on the left side of the engine and the other hit the oil reservoir.
Werner Molge confirmed to Clostermann that on his report, Dontermann wrote that his 3rd victim had landed near the Dummersee and that it had the letters JF-L and that his propeller hub was RED. My ( Clostermann saying ) aircraft indeed had a propeller hub red and the letters JF-L could have been misdjuged with a JF-E with mud on its sides.
It seems that Clostermann advised the other pilots on his formation to let the D-9 to him, saying: "Let it to me, it is a piece of cake". This sentence was later put on the Mess, when he returned home and it was a case of much fun to everybody...
I also read that the D-9 pilot dived on the Tempest while he was getting out. Clostermann believed he was going to be machine gunned, but the Dora 9 pilot waved his wings in a GENTLEMAN act and went home. This is on an interview Clostermann gave to some Brazilian people ( it is in Portuguese ). It was his last interview before he passed away. Hope this will help the thread...
I do not know IF the JG 26 Diary matches this claims here, but I put what it is on the MAGAZINE. Sorry for any mispelling or miswriting.
Cheers for both of you
Adriano

[Franek Grabowski]

I understand Clostermann's log book is in a museum in Paris. Has anybody attempted to obtain a copy?

[CJE]

There's a French saying: when you want to prove something too much, you just don't prove anything.

Have you ever read on an air combat report the code of an E/A shot down? Maybe that was possible in WWI but with the speed of a D-9 and of a Tempest, this looks very doubtful.
I'm disappointed that Dortenmann did not record the serial number of the Tempest!

Clostermann claimed a few stories that, either happened to someone else, like his fight against a high-altitude Bf 109 over the Orkneys (story that was NOT printed in the original English-language edition - why?), or cannot be ascertained, like his close encounter with a Do 335.

[Stig Jarlevik]

More and more interesting

Clostermann's memory certainly must have been playing "tricks" with him.

As far as can be ascertained he never checked any RAF files to confirm his diary (if kept) and his log book. It seems very strange that he claims to have flown on the 21st when Chris says the ORB is empty with regard to his name. Surely, if his log book exists, he should have been able just to look inside? Is it possible for at least four pilots to have flown on an unrecorded/unauthorised flight on the 21st?

However if the action did take place on the 20th it makes much more sense of course. However it then could not have been Dortenmann who shot him or any other of his Tempests down, since the time filed by all involved is wrong. Dortenmann and his pilots claimed their three victories on the 21st at about 15.15H, so not even if we transfer their mission to the 20th do they fit. They also claimed Spifires and I doubt that such an experienced pilot as Dortenmann would mistake Spitfires for Tempests!! BUT, Chris says only three Tempests were involved, so who was Filmstar Red 4 who also is claimed as shot down on that day? Is it possible Chris, just because he possibly was on loan from 33 Sq he would have been exluded in 3 Sq ORB?

No Tempests as far as I know was ever sent to Egypt, so again Clostermann's memory fails him.

Not sure who Werner Molge is/was but it seems he never got the name right of Hans Dortenmann and it also seems no one else but him has read Dortenmann's combat reports...

Cheers
Stig

[Chris Thomas]

I don't really want to promote a Clostermann-bashing session but have some comments to make on the foregoing.

Yes Stig you are correct in your interpretation of the losses listed in '2nd TAF'. We did not include 'cat Bs' unless they appear in the 2ndTAF daily log, and many did not. To include them would have meant a huge time-consuming effort and vastly increased the size of the loss tables - which were an issue with the publisher. And yes, you are correct in that surviving records do not allow the precise recreation of air combats. The reports at the time were the impressions of one man in a fraught and confusing environment; its hardly surprising they often do not match up.

Adriano, many thanks for your translation of the 'Le Fana' letters. The following comments do not reflect on your ability - I am not 'shooting the messenger'!

I stand by what I wrote about the events of 20 April but now we have alleged events for 21 April. Well ... according to the 3 Sqn Operations Record Book Clostermann did not fly operationally on 21 April - nor for the rest of the month; his next sortie was on 3 May 1945. By his account (The Big Show) he had been wounded in the leg by Allied AA on 20 April, so a break from operations would not be unexpected.

The 21 April was a day of poor weather and the Tempest squadrons carried out little operational work that day. Some of the squadrons did not fly at all. I have checked through all the ORBs (except 486's which I do not have to hand) and there is no report of a lost or force-landed Tempest anywhere.

As for the combat reported in the Le Fana letter - it seems to have more in common with that on 12 April when Dortenmann claimed 2 Tempests and Soffing claimed another. The RAF unit involved was 33 Sqn and they lost two Tempests and had a third badly damaged (it was eventually scrapped). One of the two downed Tempests was flown by Sgt J.Staines, who was killed (so he can hardly have been loaned to 3 Sqn on 21 April!).

The other Tempest pilot mentioned in this account, " F/L MacKenzie-Intyre" seems to be a bizarre mix of Flt Lt B.C.McKenzie who was killed on 21 April leading a 3 Sqn formation (Clostermann was not with him) and Flt Lt A.G.McIntyre who had flown with Clostermann on the 20 April sortie.

For the record Clostermann was in the UK on 12 April - at Warmwell APC where he had just joined 3 Sqn.

And, incidentally, no Tempests were ever sold to the Egyptians! In fact no Tempest Vs were sold to any foreign country.

[Nokose]

Axel Urbanke has listed in his book "Green Hearts First In Combat With The Dora 9" that Dortenmann's and Fw. Kurt Hein's victories over Spitfires on the 21Apr45 were possbily the two loss from 443 Sqdn RCAF. He lists Rey's claim was only listed as "probable"

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, then I will put some my comments too.
Chris, yes, I have seen such reports, although they are rare indeed. Note, that Dortenmann referred to an already crashed aircraft, so it puts slightly different perspective, too. Otherwise, I think the easiest sollution is to have a glance into the Dortenmann's report (who could easily confuse Tempest with Spitfire, a most common error), but I am not sure if Mr Molge, a secretary of JG 26 association is still with us.
Concerning records, I would not give the head for any information in ORB or any other document. They were filed by human beings and they obviously have tons of errors. A missing section from an operational flight would not surprise me that much, I have seen such things happening. Of course it does not mean 3 Sqn's ORB is wrong, it just only means a cross check with other sources is necessary.
In general this indeed looks like memory playing tricks but it should be proven by more detailed research.
PS I always thought The Big Charles is a reference to The Old Charles of Guynemer.

[Boris Ciglic]

I remember very well that in French TV series about the history of aviation from the seventies, its name here in Serbia was translated as "Skies in flame" Clostermann, leaning on JF-E spoke about an air combat in April 1945 during which he and his wingmen were shot down by single German pilot, in exact circumstances as written by Adriano, saying something like "one two three and it was over". I possibly have it somewhere recorded on VHS tape but dont have VCR any more
By the way, this is by far the best series on the subject I have ever seen, I think it had seven or eight episodes, with many interviews and excellent footage. From French side, interviewed were Roland de la Poype seated in Jak 3 and William Laboussiere standing next to a Chato. Maybe some of our French friends know more about it.

[Graham Boak]

I don't know about the Orkney combat not being in the first English edition, but it certainly was in the paperback edition I read in the 1950s.

Is it being suggested here that Clostermann did not fly this mission - in the (later) edition I have now he makes no claim to the kill for himself.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by CJE

Have you ever read on an air combat report the code of an E/A shot down?
Clostermann claimed a few stories that, either happened to someone else, like his fight against a high-altitude Bf 109 over the Orkneys (story that was NOT printed in the original English-language edition - why

1. Actually, I have. Twice, duing research for Air War Italy 1944-45. In one case an "orange" square was reported, which was in fact a yellow number; in the other, an Allied pilot reported a "diamond" on his opponent's fuselage, which was part of the tactical markings of one of the ANR's Gruppi di Caccia. In neither case was a code clearly seen, though.

2.The Orkney incident: IIRC there was a thread about this on the old forum.