2641st Special Group plane found in italy

[mayfair35]

Nick Beale: You mentioned the Luftwaffe had no day fighters in Italy after first days of Sept 1944. Are you sure that is correct? I ask because I was just reviewing our 325th FG records after I left (Feb.1945) and I noted that on April 19th, Lt. Gertin encountered a FW-190 who made a pass at him. Gertin followed him to Verona A/D and when the 190 attempted to land, Gertin shot him down. On that same day while escorting B-25s to Ora Diversion Bridge, Italy our group ran into Me-109s and claimed 6 destroyed and 1 damaged. We always thought they were from the Po valley and did not realize there were no fighter aircraft there. I think John Voll also claimed that he ran into 20 Me-109s over the Po Valley and shot down 4 of them while he did a "falling leaf" maneuver. I believe that was also after Sept but I do not have those records. Do you have any idea where the above fighters were based and how often did they fly into Northern Italy during 1945? It seems to me we were wasting our resources escorting bombers to Northern Italy if there was no opposition?
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[kaki3152]

Art,

The Bf-109s were from the Aviazione dela Republica Socialista Italiana or
RSI. The Fw-190 was either NGSr-9 or See Not 20.

[mayfair35]

kaki3152
Thank you for your information. This shows how little I knew about the enemy order of battle. I had no idea that any Italian units were still flying against us after the Italian surrender. And in truth, even before the surrender, they had been content to stay off to the side of the bomber stream doing acrobatics rather than attacking. I am afraid that we developed a feeling of contempt for their lack of eagerness to engage.
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by mayfair35

Nick Beale: You mentioned the Luftwaffe had no day fighters in Italy after first days of Sept 1944. Are you sure that is correct? I ask because I was just reviewing our 325th FG records after I left (Feb.1945) and I noted that on April 19th, Lt. Gertin encountered a FW-190 who made a pass at him. Gertin followed him to Verona A/D and when the 190 attempted to land, Gertin shot him down.

I know the story and it's covered in two books I've written. IF Gertin identified the aircraft correctly, it probably belonged to 1./NSG 9, then based at Villafranca di Verona (night ground attack), or to Stab NAG 11 (day tactical reconnaissance).

I've not found a source for this action from the German side, although that is much harder this late in the war.

On that same day while escorting B-25s to Ora Diversion Bridge, Italy our group ran into Me-109s and claimed 6 destroyed and 1 damaged. We always thought they were from the Po valley and did not realize there were no fighter aircraft there. I think John Voll also claimed that he ran into 20 Me-109s over the Po Valley and shot down 4 of them while he did a "falling leaf" maneuver. I believe that was also after Sept but I do not have those records. Do you have any idea where the above fighters were based and how often did they fly into Northern Italy during 1945? It seems to me we were wasting our resources escorting bombers to Northern Italy if there was no opposition?
Cordially, Art Fiedler

The 109s attacking the B-25s were Italian (although their operational controller was a German colonel). At the time they were based at Malpensa and Lonate near Milan and at Aviano in north east Italy.

Voll's action (16 November 1944) can't be reconciled with any known losses on the Axis side - nor with any known operation with a 12-strong formation of Bf 109s and Fw 190s. Voll reported that the combat took place over the northern Adriatic and began with him chasing a Ju 88 (of which there were 2 or 3 in Italy then but operating by night exclusively). There were recon Bf 109s and Fw 190s based in NE Italy but every operation I've ever traced by them involved either 2 or 3 machines. The Italian 109s were in action that day but somewhat later than the time Voll gave.

[mayfair35]

Mr. Beale,
Again, thank you for your most complete information. I also checked your listed site and am amazed at how you have amassed so much information.

In another vein, have you done any research into the JG 300 during the July 1944 time period? On the 26th I got into quite a tussle with two FW-190s flying above the 64 attacking the last group of B-17s. They certainly seemed to be better pilots than I (getting 2 shots at me for every one I got at them). It has been suggested that it was the JG 300 that we engaged, but I do not specifically know that.

By the way, should I have made an entirely new thread or is this procedure acceptable. As you can see I am not too familiar with procedures but hopefully will learn!

Thank you, Art Fiedler

[Erich]

Greetings Art, am sending you several private mails concerning July 26, 1944

Eric ~

[mayfair35]

Nick, I really appreciate the completness of your reply. It certainly resolves the confusion in my mind. Just as an aside, there was a rumor some years back that an investigation was being conducted into Voll's claims. His death terminated that action, if indeed it was being undertaken. In our Group we have always thought that Herky Green was really the leading ace in the 15th AF. Personally I have some difficulty contemplating a falling leaf maneuver in the Mustang and while doing it, be able to fire accurately enough to down 4 enemy aircraft!! Ah well, I was just an average pilot! Lots of things I couldn't do!
Cordially, Art Fiedler